Why AP instead of taking course at colleges

Parent Cafe
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<p>Why I would I pretend I dont know anything about Harvard? I do know about their grade inflation, their highly ranked graduate schools and their policy of generous financial aid.
I also know that the "extension" school doesn't have the same curricula as the name university- at least if the connection is similar to University of Wa and the Univ of Wa extension.
I am not speaking to students who have ability to take a large number of AP or IB courses at their school, however for students taht dont and who don't feel that they are challenged at their high school, community college courses may be a good alternative.
Here the district pays for Running start courses- students use them for high school credit and they apply toward graduation. Courses that apply towards graduation, normally can't be counted twice and also apply towards college. However some schools may allow you to take a higher level course because of the community college course, or you may need to take a placement test as at Uchicago.</p>

<p>The students who are looking at these top 50 schools will be best served by taking AP- however that has never been my point.
My point is that I see many students on these boards fearful that because they have a weak school system, that they have no chance to be prepared for college. CC courses can be a way to supplement high school work. Also colleges do not expect you to take classes that aren't available.
My daughters previous school ( I speak of my 10th grader) didn't have honors or AP courses. The curriculum was actually fairly weak, and the students who were in the top% of the school would not necesarily be so at another school ( why we changed schools incidentally)- however- the colleges look at what courses are available, and if the students are doing well in those courses, ( their only option was to take running start for say a calc class, they couldn't go to another high school and take AP), then they have a good chance of admittance- many of the kids at her previous school go on to college, even without IMO a strong curriculum.
THat is all that I wanted other students to realize, that unless they are going to a school that only goes by test scores and AP credits, they still can attend college even if they don't have IB or AP. ( however if they are motivated- they can take online college courses or take the AP test anyway- I have known people who have recieved 3 or 4s on AP tests from self study and that was good enough to use for placement at several colleges)</p>

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<p>Quoting EK;</p>

<p>"I don't know about either of those schools because I am on the left coast" Enough said. You can think whatever you like, and say whatever you like.</p>

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<p>The information below was taken from the Princeton Admission website. It shows clearly the discrepancy in the way that AP and college classes are treated for both credit and placement. Note that placement tests are only given in a very limited number of subjects, eg. foreign languages, physics, chemistry and math. Thus, a college course in anthropology or literature would not count.</p>

<p>Begin quote------</p>

<p>Information on Advanced Placement and Advanced
Standing, Academic Year 2005-06</p>

<p>The advanced placement policy at Princeton is designed to give recognition to college-level work prior to matriculation and to allow you to pursue your studies at a level appropriate to your preparation. If you have been granted sufficient advanced placement units in the appropriate number of subject areas (see table), you may be eligible for advanced standing, which will permit you to graduate in either three or three and one-half years.</p>

<p>Below is some general information concerning advanced placement and advanced standing at Princeton. The dean or director of studies in your residential college and the Academic Guide can provide further guidance in exploring the options available to you.
I. Earning Advanced Placement</p>

<p>Individual departments award advanced placement on one or more of the following bases:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>official score reports from Advanced Placement Examinations, SAT I Reasoning Tests and SAT II Subject Tests, the International Baccalaureate (higher level), and British A-level examinations (see table for minimum scores accepted);</p></li>
<li><p>results of placement tests offered by departments at Princeton. Placement tests are offered in foreign languages, physics, and chemistry during orientation. (The Mathematics department has its own placement procedures.)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>You are not eligible for AP credit for college courses taken prior to matriculation unless you take an approved standardized examination or a placement test offered by Princeton in the subject. [my bold]</p>

<p>At the beginning of the fall term, you will receive a report of all the AP units that you were granted at matriculation. Please review this report carefully and immediately inform your dean or director of studies if our records are not accurate. In the middle of the term, you will receive a second report, which will reflect scores that have been received during the intervening weeks.
II. Uses of Advanced Placement</p>

<p>You can use advanced placement in three ways:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>to enter upper-level courses;</p></li>
<li><p>to fulfill the foreign language requirement;</p></li>
<li><p>to become eligible for graduation in three or three and one-half years (advanced standing).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Please note that you CANNOT use advanced placement:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>to fulfill the writing requirement;</p></li>
<li><p>to make up course deficiencies;</p></li>
<li><p>to reduce your course load in a given term;</p></li>
<li><p>to fulfill the distribution requirements. If you have two units of advanced placement in biology, chemistry, or physics, you will have two options for fulfilling the distribution requirement in science and technology with laboratory.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>a. You may take any two laboratory courses that fulfill the science and technology requirement. Remember, however, that you will lose the use of your AP units for advanced standing if you take the course or courses for which your advanced placement was granted.</p>

<p>b. You may take one laboratory course and one science or technology course without a laboratory from a list of approved courses, designated "STX." If you choose this option, the laboratory course you select may not be a course for which your advanced placement was granted.
III. Counting Advanced Placement Units for Advanced Standing</p>

<p>When adding up your AP units, please remember the following points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Each AP unit replaces one Princeton course.</p></li>
<li><p>The maximum number of AP units per subject is two.</p></li>
<li><p>All advanced placement awarded at matriculation is recorded on your transcript. You forfeit the use of your AP for advanced standing if you take courses deemed equivalent to or below ones for which advanced placement was granted. In the case of foreign language, if you were awarded two units of advanced placement credit at matriculation, you forfeit both units if you enroll in any 100-level course in the language for which AP was granted.
IV. AP Units and Subjects Required for Advanced Standing</p></li>
<li><p>Requirements for graduation in three years (by becoming a sophomore in the spring of the first year or a junior in the fall of the second year):</p></li>
</ol>

<p>A.B. candidates need eight advanced placement units (equivalent to eight Princeton courses) distributed in at least three of the following subject areas in which AP is granted: foreign languages, historical analysis, literature and the arts, quantitative reasoning, science and technology, and social analysis.</p>

<p>A.B. candidates need a minimum of 23 courses to graduate, of which a maximum of two may be taken away from Princeton with prior approval.</p>

<p>B.S.E. candidates need eight advanced placement units, among them two in physics, two in mathematics, and one in either chemistry or computer science. B.S.E. candidates need a minimum of 28 courses to graduate, of which a maximum of three may be taken away from Princeton with prior approval.</p>

<ol>
<li>Requirements for graduation in three and one-half years (by taking off one term of the sophomore year):</li>
</ol>

<p>A.B. candidates need four advanced placement units in at least two subject areas. A.B. candidates need a minimum of 27 courses to graduate, of which a maximum of two may be taken away from Princeton with prior approval.</p>

<p>B.S.E. candidates need four advanced placement units, including two in physics, one in mathematics, and one in chemistry or computer science. B.S.E. candidates need a minimum of 32 courses to graduate, of which a maximum of three may be taken away from Princeton with prior approval.
V. Eligibility for Advanced Standing:</p>

<ol>
<li>Eligibility to graduate in three years. In addition to presenting the appropriate number of advanced placement units in the required subject areas, you are required to:</li>
</ol>

<p>a. have fulfilled all prerequisites for a major;</p>

<p>b. propose a plan of study in a major, approved by the appropriate departmental representative;</p>

<p>c. indicate how you will fulfill all remaining University requirements; and</p>

<p>d. have earned a B average (with no grade lower than a C) prior to the start of junior year.</p>

<p>The Committee on Examinations and Standing, which formally grants advanced standing, may also rescind it if, in its judgment, you have not made satisfactory progress toward the degree.</p>

<ol>
<li>Eligibility to graduate in three and one-half years. In addition to presenting the appropriate number of advanced placement units in the required subject areas, you are required to:</li>
</ol>

<p>a. have a B- average (with no grade lower than a C) prior to your leave;</p>

<p>b. indicate your choice of major and how you will fulfill the prerequisites for it.
VI. Notification of Eligibility and Application Procedures</p>

<p>You will be notified by your residential college dean of your eligibility for a year or a term of advanced standing in November, after a review of your midterm grades.</p>

<p>For a year of advanced standing you must submit an application by the beginning of the first day of the spring term of the freshman year. You should be choosing courses for the spring term with a three-year degree in mind.</p>

<p>If you plan to take the fall term of sophomore year on advanced standing, you should meet with your dean or director of studies by April 1 to discuss your plans. If you plan to take the spring term of the sophomore year on advanced standing, you should meet with your dean or director of studies by December 1 to discuss your plans.</p>

<p>During your term away, you will officially be on a leave of absence. Before leaving campus, you must see Dean Richard G. Williams, 408 West College, to arrange for the leave.
VII. Reverting from Advanced Standing</p>

<p>If you decide to take a year of advanced standing and then decide to stay the full four years, you may revert and join your original class anytime prior to the start of your senior year. If you do not change your concentration, your junior independent work will count. If you are on financial aid, you will still be eligible for a full four years of aid.</p>

<p>end quote--------------</p>

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<p>Marite, this sounds like a great thing to have available to the public. Is it very expensive?</p>

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<p>Many of the AP courses at my son's school also offered concurrent enrollment at the local community college. Some kids take the AP test, some pay for the "College Now" credit at the local college, some do both (probably some do neither). My son choose to do the community college route since most of the engineering schools he planned to apply to showed they would accept the courses class for class. It was easier for him to do well over the whole course than to try to do well on a single exam in May.</p>

<p>Now he won't have to take 6 hours of freshman English, 6 hours of US History, 3 hours of statistics, 3 hours of psychology, and 10 hours of Calculus 1 and 2 when he starts REAL college next fall. And we paid the lower community college fees ($68/hour) rather than the higher costs at the out-of-state schools he may attend next year. True, it may have been cheaper to get the AP credit, but after a bad experience with the European History AP test as a sophomore, my son was glad not to take any more of them.</p>

<p>Bottom line: it pays to have some idea where you are going to college to determine which option works best for you.</p>

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<p>Ellemenope:</p>

<p>The cost of each semester class is about $500; some cost $750, some, with labs, may cost $1500. Many of the high schoolers who take Extension classes are eligible for Lowell scholarships which may cover all or half of the cost of the class. My S paid for all of one course (it was available at his high school but he could not take it because of scheduling conflict) and for half of another course (because he registered late and most of the scholarship monies had been distributed. All in all, he took 4 courses--the equivalent of a semester's load--, for a total of approximately 1k. Students from nearby schools can take the courses, as do some homeschoolers.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bottom line: it pays to have some idea where you are going to college to determine which option works best for you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>2sonmama: That is absolutely correct. And, if a student is not part of a system that accepts dual enrolment courses or community college courses, the student has no way of knowing whether the college s/he will be attending will accept community college courses for credit. This does not mean that a student who took college courses will have to repeat them, but they will not be available to accelerate the time to degree.</p>

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<p>Is your goal learning? High school AP courses, CC courses, and yes, even Harvard courses come in all flavors - from great, thru okay, to really bad. The same course at the same school can run the gamut depending on the teacher. If your goal is to actually learn the material, you should research the specific options available to you and choose the best learning environment.</p>

<p>If your goal is credit, it helps to know what college your child will be attending. Many 4-yr state colleges will accept credit for all courses taken at CCs that routinely feed into them. They will also give credit for most AP exams, and even for some CLEP exams. Many elite colleges, like Princeton and Harvard, have a policy of refusing credit for all or most college courses taken in high school, even if the courses are taken at well known colleges. For those schools, your chances of credit are better if you take an AP exam, totally aside from whether you learn the material from an AP course, a CC course, or self-study. But even if you take APs and do well, don't expect to get credit for every AP exam - policies vary widely on which exams and what scores are acceptable.</p>

<p>A third possible goal, totally separate from the previous two, is placement. It is not in any college's best interest to have students wasting time in classes covering material they already know. Colleges may use the results of CC courses or AP exams for placement, totally separate from the issue of whether or not they will give credit. Alternately, they may require students to take the college's own placement exam, or they may just have the student talk to the prof or an advisor before registering for a course for which they lack official credit for the prereq.</p>

<p>Here was my son's experience - he had 10 AP exams with scores of 5, and 3 distance learning college courses with grades of A. MIT gave him credit for 5 of the AP scores and none of the college courses. (it is not a distance learning issue. A friend of his took 60 credits of CC courses and also got no credit from MIT). At our state U. he would have gotten automatic credit for all of it and entered as a sophomore. At orientation, son was able to take MIT exams for 2 of the AP subjects and one of the college course subjects that were not recognized for automatic credit, and get credit that way. Then he talked his way into 2 higher level courses for which he had background, but no proof at all of having covered the prereqs. If he had matriculated at some other college, it would all have been handled differently. Read the policies of schools your child is interested in.</p>