Why Are So Many On Cc So Obsessed With "top" Colleges?

<p>know-it-all,</p>

<p>I noticed that you cannot defend the items I mentioned in my post. And brainwashed? I come from a background that never before even thought of other colleges besides the inexpensive Berkeley or UCLA. Then very late in my high school career did I become acquainted with the concept of need-based. My parents did not even know. Right now, even after being accepted to Yale, I am still applying to non-ivies such as Williams and Duke. Why? Because I value the learning experience and environment of Williams and the location of Duke. Yet, I realize that the level obtained at HYP, the tops, are simply superior to these other schools to which I am applying. Nevertheless, I acknowledge this fact and am willing to sacrifice if a good opportunity presents itself. Thus, I appreciate it if you didn't argue so bluntly and rudely and start acting more mature, albeit this is a simple internet forum. I did my research. Have you done yours? Your sampling of many ivy grads is not enough; okay, so they agree that the name and prestige are pivotal. I bet that they also mentioned that the education there was invaluable and resources to help and finance them along the way were also helpful. You purposely did not mention that, did you?</p>

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Right now, even after being accepted to Yale, I am still applying to non-ivies such as Williams and Duke. Why? Because I value the learning experience and environment of Williams and the location of Duke.

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<p>Yet, you seem to have already made the decision to go to Yale, as indicated by "Yale 2012."</p>

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Yet, I realize that the level obtained at HYP, the tops, are simply superior to these other schools to which I am applying.

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<p>Now that's reallllly pushing it. I might see an argument for HYP over Kenyon, but HYP over... Duke? Williams? They're on par. (Your repetition has really begun to seem like brainwashing, though it may not be so...)</p>

<p>Well know-it-all let me ask you this,</p>

<p>Your son/daughter is has his/her choice at Harvard or Kenyon. Which would you rather he/she go to? If you answered Kenyon, honestly, then I commend you.</p>

<p>But IRL, she'll reap many more benefits from having that Ivy League degree.</p>

<p>kyledavid,</p>

<p>Just saw other people doing "Yale 2012," "Chicago '12, "Georgetown 12," and I decided to join the crowd. I apologize for the confusion it may've caused.</p>

<p>kyledavid80: "but HYP over... Duke? Williams? They're on par."</p>

<p>Not by any stretch of the imagination...Williams? Arguable Duke? Delusional</p>

<p>Let me add my two cents. Getting a decent job with Bachelors degree is a thing of the past. Now, you need a graduate degree. Your life gets easier if your degrees are from elite schools. So, getting into as elite school always good in the long term. On the other hand, if you want to have fun and party, that would a different story.</p>

<p>I just accepted an exciting job offer in India from a company that states on their web site that they only recruit at Ivy League universities.</p>

<p>An Ivy pedigree certainly doesnt hurt.</p>

<p>My father has his BA from Brown and his MBA from Wharton. He's had troubule finding jobs and is now (happily!) self employed. My step-mother has her BA from Brown and her MFA from Stanford. Unhappily unemployed. Most of you are delusional.</p>

<p>Noone is saying that ONLY having a degree from a top school will get you employed, but it certainly helps. Are you saying that going to Northwestern isn't better for you?</p>

<p>December 29, 2007
Harvard’s Aid to Middle Class Pressures Rivals
By JONATHAN D. GLATER
Just days after Harvard University announced this month that it would significantly expand financial aid to students from families earning as much as $180,000 a year, William G. Durden, president of Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pa., got a query from a student’s father, asking whether the college would follow Harvard’s lead.</p>

<p>“He even said, ‘I know this costs a lot of money, but you should do it anyway,’ ” Dr. Durden said. The president replied that Dickinson, a small liberal arts college where the full annual cost of tuition, fees, room and board nears $45,000, did not have the money to match Harvard’s largess.</p>

<p>Because of Harvard, Dr. Durden said ruefully in recalling the exchange, “a lot of us are going to be under huge pressure to do these things that we just can’t do.”</p>

<p>By substantially discounting costs for all but the very wealthiest students, Harvard shook up the landscape of college pricing. Like Dr. Durden, officials of other colleges say its move will create intense pressure on them to give more aid to upper-middle-class students and will open the door to more parental price haggling.</p>

<p>Some colleges had already been moving to eliminate loans from all their financial aid packages and replace them with grants. In the weeks since Harvard’s announcement, a stampede of additional institutions — the University of Pennsylvania, Pomona, Swarthmore, Haverford — have taken the same step, which will help middle- and upper-middle-income families. </p>

<p>But Harvard, in adopting that practice, has also gone far beyond it: for families earning $120,000 to $180,000 a year, costs will now be limited to about 10 percent of income, meaning that students from such families will pay a maximum of $18,000, a deep discount from the university’s full annual cost of more than $45,600.</p>

<p>Officials at colleges without anything like Harvard’s $35 billion endowment say a rush to give tuition discounting to the middle and upper middle class at institutions like theirs could end up shifting financial aid from low-income students to wealthier, make pricing seem even more arbitrary and create pressure to raise full tuition to pay for all the assistance.</p>

<p>“Harvard has started to redefine the financial aid landscape, and it’s redefined it in a way that is quite beneficial to the wealthiest institutions,” said Jenny Rickard, dean of admissions and financial aid at Bryn Mawr. “It is just a handful of schools that can really respond this way, but it leaves others kind of pulling their hair.”</p>

<p>In the competitive scramble for prestige and rankings, numerous colleges already try to lure some top students away from the Ivy League by showering them with “merit aid” even if they are well off and can afford full tuition. The practice is controversial, with some college administrators scorning it as a way of “buying” a better incoming class, sometimes at the expense of lower-income students. </p>

<p>Some administrators say there will now be pressure to provide more merit aid to relatively wealthy high achievers, reducing the amount available to poorer students.</p>

<p>“It could lead to schools’ doing this sort of thing because they want to be part of the top group,” David W. Oxtoby, president of Pomona College in California, said of Harvard’s move. If that meant those colleges had to reduce the number of their low-income students, Dr. Oxtoby said, “that would be terrible, exactly the wrong outcome.” (Pomona itself, where full costs are more than $45,000, does not provide merit aid.)</p>

<p>Some academics who study higher education predict that Harvard’s decision may even reduce economic diversity at Harvard itself, even though the university already allows any admitted student from a family earning $60,000 or less to attend virtually free of charge. </p>

<p>Donald E. Heller, director of the Center for the Study of Higher Education at Pennsylvania State University, said that if Harvard’s new aid program encouraged more middle- and upper-middle-income students to apply, then the number of slots for low-income applicants in an entering class would probably decline. </p>

<p>“They’re just going to get crowded out,” Dr. Heller said.</p>

<p>William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions at Harvard, said that the university was committed to helping poorer students attend but that years of research had shown that students from families in the middle and upper-middle class were not even applying, most likely because they had decided that the price was simply unaffordable.</p>

<p>“People were voting with their feet,” Dean Fitzsimmons said. “It was pretty clear that we were missing out on some pretty exciting students.”</p>

<p>Parents and other critics have complained for years that tuition has steadily increased faster than the rate of inflation, and college affordability has become an issue in Congress. Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the senior Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, has suggested that colleges be required to spend more of their endowments as a condition of keeping their tax-exempt status. And a bill approved by the House Education and Labor Committee last month would seek to shame, by listing publicly, those colleges that raise tuition significantly faster than their peers.</p>

<p>But administrators at colleges without enormous endowments to help them cut student costs say they fear that Harvard may have created a wave of haggling by families and made college pricing and student aid packages seem even more opaque.</p>

<p>“It will educate those parents into thinking, ‘Eighteen thousand dollars a year is what we ought to be paying; why should we have to pay more than that?’ ” said John Strassburger, president of Ursinus College, where full costs are currently $43,160.</p>

<p>Jonathan Burdick, dean of admissions and financial aid at the University of Rochester, where costs are nearly $45,000, said: “Harvard has made it harder for everybody. They’ve given fuel to the argument that colleges are charging more than they should.”</p>

<p>Ms. Rickard, dean of admissions and financial aid at Bryn Mawr, where total costs run over $45,000, said the college had so far resisted substituting grants for loans because it would make it harder to spread aid as widely. “The reason we have the loans is it enables us to support more students,” she said.</p>

<p>For some public universities, Harvard’s move provided a rationale to argue for more state assistance to hold the line on student costs. Robert J. Birgeneau, chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, where total costs are roughly $25,000, said, “My intention, frankly, is to use the Harvard announcement to try to exert pressure on the government of California to increase resources for financial aid.” </p>

<p>And in New York, State Senator Kenneth P. LaValle, a Republican who heads the Senate Higher Education Committee, said he would introduce legislation to provide enough state aid to limit to 10 percent the amount of income that a middle-class family — which he defined as one earning up to $150,000 — would have to pay for college. </p>

<p>“It’s Harvard,” Mr. LaValle said. “They created a new paradigm. People will pay attention to it. And we need to pay attention to the affordability issue as it applies to middle-income taxpayers.”</p>

<p>Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company</p>

<p>A lot of OVERachieving is due to feelings of inferiority. The inferiority could be financial, physical, social, or whatever. The average height of Marines is supposed to be shorter than the average male American (trying to do prove toughness). Guys who buy Porsches are notoriously under-equipped (trying to prove masculinity).</p>

<p>Even though an Ivy degree is truly no better than say, a Duke degree, there are some occasions where employers are ignorant and just choose the Ivy grad, and for those potentially important occasions, it doesn't hurt to have gone to an Ivy.</p>

<p>But I digress, this thread is about "top" schools, and Duke is certainly a top school. It CAN make a difference for getting a job... if two candidates are the same, but one went to UPenn and the other went to BU.... well... I wonder what the deciding factor would be.</p>

<p>^^You can also say that people who did <em>not</em> end up at a top school have an inferiority complex and are thus putting down others who <em>did</em> make it and saying that a top school or Ivy education doesn't do much more than a regular state school education (FYI, I'm exaggerating a little). Anyhow, it can go both ways.</p>

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But I digress, this thread is about "top" schools, and Duke is certainly a top school. It CAN make a difference for getting a job... if two candidates are the same, but one went to UPenn and the other went to BU.... well... I wonder what the deciding factor would be.

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I think employers might choose the non-ivy grad because ivy grads are snobby and feel they deserve everything (since they went to an ivy). BU grads might not have that "elitist" attitude</p>

<p>"I think employers might choose the non-ivy grad because ivy grads are snobby and feel they deserve everything (since they went to an ivy)."</p>

<p>^^ivy envy...who told you that?...I am sure you are not an ivy student so your post is just an assumption.</p>

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How are they not better off academically? These top schools admit the most of the smartest students in the nation

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<p>Just take a look at the "What are my chances?" forum. The number of people bemoaning their ethnicity or their financial status or list of extracurriculars is just proof that top schools don't just skim all the "smartest" students off the top. Several factors (some arguably more fair than others) go into play. imo, there really are too many smart students to fit into USNWR's Beloveds, and I know quite a few who simply aren't attracted to that environment, opting instead for a good state school's Honors Program or something of the like. As someone else previously mentioned, grad school is becoming much more important anyways.</p>

<p>Anyways, to speak of all "top schools" in general, aim high. Really. It's important to shoot for your goals seriously. It's also important to challenge yourself academically, rather than go to a school too easy for you no matter how much you love the campus. But there's a huge difference between striving for the best and obsessing. Try to find the college that best fits you, and do the best job you can on your application. But I've seen too many people go what I think is too far--lying about volunteer hours, plainly trying to sneak by directions on applications, attempting to sabotage other students' grades or applications. Seriously, don't let it get in the way of your character--or your health for that matter. Not to say that this is what CCers are all doing, but I think it's important to enjoy the high school experience you have now, in addition to preparing for college. High school should not simply be the route to Dream U, if that makes any sense.</p>

<p>And might I add</p>

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Even though an Ivy degree is truly no better than say, a Duke degree, there are some occasions where employers are ignorant and just choose the Ivy grad

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I would rather not have an ignorant employer...</p>

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I think employers might choose the non-ivy grad because ivy grads are snobby and feel they deserve everything (since they went to an ivy). BU grads might not have that "elitist" attitude

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<p>I would hope that not everyone at ivy league schools are snobby, considering some of my best friends are gong there and are the least snobby people I've ever met.... I would hope the employer wouldn't just assume that they are all "elitist".</p>

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I would rather not have an ignorant employer...

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Me too, but such is life. If it's a kickass job though, most people would look past that.</p>

<p>An employer "ignorant" of college ratings may be savvy in a way that is quite beneficial to the business. Similarly, if you are well versed in something that benefits him (presumably as a result of Your college opportunities), it could turn out to be a mutually better working relationship for both of you.</p>

<p>OP referred to schools such as "Lehigh's, Colgate's, Kenyon's, Carleton's".</p>

<p>I wanted to point out that I would consider these "top schools" - top LACs, all within top 10/30, and tough to get into. I think their middle 50 pct test scores, as well as wunderkind requirements, are similar to the Ivies.</p>

<p>Top is relative. As a consumer of the LAC type of college, I can reiterate the OP's question to those LACs in the top echelon.</p>

<p>.
also-L Pope's Colleges that Change Lives was written precisely to answer OP's question.</p>

<p>Colleges</a> That Change Lives</p>