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<p>Because the schools definition of need is different than the families. Colleges expect families to cut out extras in determining funds available.</p>
<p>Families with the same income may have very different debts and obligations.</p>
<p>FAFSA is straightforward at determining who is eligible for Pell grants. ( relatively)
CSS looks for other assets, non custodial parents, small businesses, other real estate, non retirement accts, etc.
If you did not expect to use your equity in your home to help cover your families school expenses, you are likely to be surprised.
Our CSS EFC was the same as FAFSA- that is unusual.
Most will be higher.</p>
<p>Our CSS EFC was also the same as our FAFSA EFC. That EFC was still “high,” in that it was about 20% or so of our gross income. We planned for it, so we were able to pay our EFC. However, I have friends who earn about the same or more than we earn, and they are unable to pay as much as we pay without needing to borrow to do so. They have made choices to buy things or go places over the years, while we have chosen to put the money toward our kids’ educations. There is no right or wrong here … it’s just the way it is.</p>
<p>Many families live up to every dollar and more that is earned. Often times with every good intentions. Parents want the best school districts, the nicest community and the most comfortably house and amenities for their children and themselves. College is only one part of the whole picture, and something in the distant future. Now is the piano lessons, trips and living in a good neighborhood, living as good of a life as one can. Many take it to such an extreme that even very well to do families do not put aside enough for college.</p>
<p>The other problem is that we have been going through some very rough econonmic times in past 10 or so years. Many of us have lost jobs, business is down, homes that were purchased at the peak of the market are no longer worth what they were, and prices for every day things only go up. Medical premiums, insurance in general. food,gas prices. utilities and the necessary electronics for us to function in society today all cost quite a bit of money. Salaries simply have not gone up for many households as was expected . Kids can’t get paying summer jobs. Money is hard to get. </p>
<p>So when the time comes, I certainly can see why MIDDLE income folks can’t pay their EFC at time. The whole theory is that the cost is to be met by past, prsent and future earnings in the forms of savings, being frugal and tightening the belt and paying out the current paycheck and loans. When a family has not saved, and it takes every cent to meet operating costs for the family on long term commitments that one can’t easily walk away from, it puts everything into the loan category, the future. The problem with that is that if you haven’t been able to save in the past, can’t pay it now, how the heck do you think you can pay it in the future which is uncertain, and with old age and health problems entering the picture? </p>
<p>I also believe what is defined as middle income is not taking into account that families who are middle aged and have kids college age, may not really be “middle income” for their range and needs. When one defines the income layers, household income includes a lot of new, young families, and elderly family units. Families with college aged kids do not face the same expenses and challenges or have the same resources that those other groups have. We don’t have Medicare to step into the picture, or parents who can help out in many cases. In fact, that is often the next phase of our lives is to try to help our young college grads and their family get going in life and standby if crises hit. Yeah, the burden of being middle class, upper middle class, upper class. If you can’t, you don’t because you can’t. But when it’s feasible to do, you try when it involves those you love.</p>
<p>The other issue, one that really concerns me is that kids are not saving these days. It’s absolutely pitiful, IMO, that kids who are far, far better off than I was at college age, don’t even have what I had saved up from saving bonds, birthdays, baby sitting, allowance, summer jobs, odd jobs over the years since I was an infant. They have NADA saved. Some have never worked. They have zero money. That is ridiculous, don’t you thinK? Especially when the kid should be takingon 10 to 15% cost. Even Harvard has requirements for kids who are PELL eligible and getting pretty much the full tab paid to have a frigging student contribution. And kids are crying foul over it. Yes, kids should be saving and working for their college as well.</p>
<p>In some cases, middle class families can’t afford to pay, but I suspect that in most cases it’s a matter of choosing not to afford to pay. It is a matter of priorities, and when priorities were set. 20 years from now, we’re going to hear some of the same families lamenting how they “can’t afford to retire.” Why is this? Because they decided they could afford a slightly higher mortgage payment, a slightly more expensive vacation, an extra $20 a month for the better cable package, the unlimited plan on their cell phone… all little things that add up. They think they’re make up for it later, but later never comes. Part of it is an entitled attitude we see within society these days - what were considered luxuries 30 years ago, people take for granted, and assume or necessities. Families receiving government assistance have everything middle class families used to have, and middle class families feel they are entitled to a better lifestyle than the poor families, so they spend and spend. They’re hurting themselves in so many ways - not only are they not saving for their future, but they’re getting used to that “better” lifestyle which they can’t sustain into retirement.</p>
<p>Go to a “financial aid night” in any middle class community, and see what parents are being told - and how they react. We were told 3 years ago that typical families in our community should expect to pay $20-25,000 per year for college, which ended up pretty accurate for us. The FA official that was presenting then proceeded to show families that they did in fact have that money available, and where they would have to make cuts: the cell phone, the cable bill, the fancy car, the big vacation… we looked at each other and decided we must be on the lower income level here, because we don’t have those high bills to cut. But then we realized our priorities are different. Because those families are spending on those things, they are not paying down the mortgage, saving for college, or for retirement. Next year, they will cut way back to pay tuition out of current salary, and take some loans. We will not cut back, but will pay from past savings and current salary and no loans). When the kids are out of college, we will have more available to spend on ourselves, and can afford to retire. They will still have to cut back, because they will have loans to pay off, and won’t be able to afford to retire. Priorities…</p>
<p>Cpt… kids are not saving today, because parents are not saving today. They are not encouraging the kids to do so, and not setting an example for the kids. Many local kids have jobs, but they’re not saving - they’re spending it, and are going to be shocked when they are expected to contribute to their own educational costs. In many ways the “poor” kids who work to help put food on the table are much better off, because they have a better grasp of reality.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse: Your paragraph#2 & #3 rings true for us. We’ve had furloughs/pay cuts/ increasing property taxes (weird since the housing market is down), etc. Forced job change and move due to declining economy, child #3 needs braces, etc, our cars are old and we don’t take vacations. </p>
<p>We’re college parent newbies…1st child is attending in the fall. We were shocked by the EFC, and disappointed to find that she won’t receive merit aid as a 4.0 unweighted and 31 act. I guess those stats just aren’t special. Which is actually good to know, since the news keeps reporting that our education system is broken. She hasn’t worked as many summer hours as we did at that age, but has saved nearly everything she earned.</p>
<p>I agree that some of D’s friends don’t work at all, and she has felt somewhat deprived at having to work. Her friends have unlimited data on their cells (she has none), and take vacations to tropical places. I don’t know how they do it.</p>
<p>We’re scrambling trying to figure out what to do. We’ve lived a modest life, and have had to pay our own way for things w/o help from our own parents. Our income looks decent on paper, but once you deduct fed income taxes, state income taxes, prop taxes, etc that number really gets whittled down.</p>
<p>We were just in debt for our own education, and now we’ll be back in debt for our children’s. </p>
<p>Not sure what my point is, other than as a family of 5 who lives modestly, sometimes you’re right on the brink w/your income to have a big EFC and difficulty backing it up.</p>
<p>“We were shocked by the EFC, and disappointed to find that she won’t receive merit aid as a 4.0 unweighted and 31 act.”</p>
<p>There are places where those stats would get her a free education. However, if she isn’t interested in one of those places, or none of them offer her rare major, then things are different. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html</a></p>
<p>What is a more common scenario is that the child doesn’t have stellar stats and so no merit whatsoever is in the offing, and admission to any of the places that claim to meet full need certainly isn’t even possible.</p>
<p>trees…There are many parents just like you and us in the same financial boat. We’re middle class income with 3 kids, treading water after a pay cut/pay freeze in 2009, just finished paying off the third set of braces 
, one in college now and twins that are HS sophomores. College is certainly a daunting process.</p>
<p>What we’ve learned is that folks in our situation need to expand their list of schools, and have our kids focus on the big picture…the best college education our family can AFFORD. They’re fully aware that this might not necessarily mean the “biggest name” school they get accepted to. As Happymom said, with your D’s stats there are a number of schools where she would qualify for a full-ride scholarship, but they might not be schools she would’ve ever considered initially. At this point she’d probably have to take a gap year to be able to take advantage of any of those opportunities, but depending on how big of a financial bind her current choices would put your family in it’s something you/she might consider.</p>
<p>Our HS sophs are shooting for more well known schools, but are already in the mindset that a full-ride at a lesser known school (and NO UNDERGRAD DEBT!!) can still lead to fantastic grad school opportunities at the “name” schools. Our D2 already has a “bird in hand” test score that will qualify her for the scholarships at several schools, and that knowledge will take a lot of pressure off of her when she takes the PSAT/SAT/ACT again next year as a junior. We certainly learned a lot going through the process with our D1 (college soph) and it’s changed the way we’re approaching things with D2 and S. Hopefully things will work out for your D and her siblings as well. There’s a wealth of info here on CC, and a lot of good folks who are willing to help and advise.</p>
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<p>Are there such places? Maybe.
Are they places someone with those stats would actually want to go? I highly doubt it.</p>
<p>As far as the BobWallace’s CC thread, many (most) of the entries are not full ride anyway.
From the very first sentence: “The purpose of this thread is to catalog large scholarships.” It says “large,” not “full.”</p>
<p>Here are some of the entries:</p>
<p>*
Approximately 80% Tuition </p>
<p>It provides a four year $10,000 scholarship</p>
<p>Award: $10,000 + room</p>
<p>In-state awards (2013-14): GPA 4.0 & up & ACT 30-33 (SAT 1330-1480) –> $9,250</p>
<p>etc.*</p>
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<p>And this is EXACTLY the kind of mindset that leads to middle class families with high stat kids allowing themselves and their children to get BURIED in unaffordable debt…to send their kids to a school that has a better perceived reputation instead of seriously considering schools that have a KNOWN better value. Not strictly a lower price…but a better VALUE. YMMV.</p>
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<p>I think that is 100% spot on.
And it applies to us.</p>
<p>But just let me add one more thing about “piano lessons are now” and “not saving for college.”
We did save.
But seventeen years ago it never would have occurred to me that four years of a college education would cost a quarter of a million dollars!
One needs to add to the equation that the cost of a college education is over three times the consumer price index:</p>
<p><a href=“http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg[/url]”>http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg</a></p>
![http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg[/url]](http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
<p>This has hit everyone like a runaway train.</p>
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<p>I have no intention of getting buried in debt.
Neither does my daughter.
The $60,000 a year schools are off our radar and will remain so.</p>
<p>Not sure how you’re defining “known better value.”
YMMV should be changed to YVMV.</p>
<p>Let’s take a look at the admission and middle 50% ACT stats of some random schools taken from BobWallace’s list.
I don’t want to embarrass any colleges or any of their students so I will not name them.</p>
<p>School L - 86% 20 – 25
School W - 92% 18 – 24
School N - 100% TOEFL Required</p>
<p>Would any parent or child with a 4.0/31 find “value” at any of those institutions, even with a free ride?</p>
<p>Besides, IMHO, this is a tangent to the main point of the thread anyway. These “free-ride” schools are not the answer to the prohibitive costs being faced by middle-class families.</p>
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<p>I know several kids with those stats who are receiving merit aid that equates to a free education. And it’s at a school they are happy to attend. Not elite or prestigious, but high quality and MUCH more than adequate. Their merit aid doesn’t cover room and board, but I don’t consider room and board to be “education.” If a student needs merit aid, he or she needs to target the schools where it’s a reasonable possibility. Unfortunately, many top students mistakenly believe that they’re too good for those schools. (And treesofgreen, I’m not at all implying that your child is one of those - a lot of kids don’t get merit because they simply don’t know up front which schools to target).</p>
<p>“But seventeen years ago it never would have occurred to me that four years of a college education would cost a quarter of a million dollars!”</p>
<p>Actually, the predictions made at the “save for college” meeting on 529s that I attended at Happykid’s elementary school when she was in 3rd grade, proved to be practically spot-on. I walked out of that meeting knowing that there was no way on earth that we could come up with the kind of money I’d been told we needed to save to pay for her education. So we didn’t deliberately save a cent for college until January of her senior year of HS when the goal was to have fall tuition at our local community college saved up before classes started.</p>
<p>Had one of the presenters looked out into the room and said, “For some of you, this amount of savings is impossible. For those of you with only one child a 529 might not be the best choice of an investment because it can only be used for education. But please, please, please do make an effort to save something, anything. Even in a shoebox under your bed. $10 a week for the next 10 years is $5,200 even with no interest. That could pay for textbooks, or college-required health insurance, or for the difference between a year at the commuting-distance state U rather than a community college.” I might have thought through things and realized that yes, by cutting out X, I could at least have the textbooks covered. However, the presenters were interested in selling one specific product to families who they presumed to be focused entirely on the type of higher-end education many families here at CC are also focused on, so only 529s were even mentioned. State tuition was barely mentioned in passing, and the community college option wasn’t mentioned at all.</p>
<p>Occasionally I kick myself for not being smart enough to realize that I had more options than were presented at that meeting. Maybe we would still have made the financial decisions that we did, but maybe we would have cut out here, or there, or somewhere else.</p>
<p>Golffather, in fact some of these schools are places kids may love to attend if they get past the negative perceptions they pick up at HS by visiting the colleges to get a real picture. My D has 4.0 unweighted, 35/2280, 800math2, NMF, 8 APs, music ECs abundant, etc. Not extraordinary, just like your average CCer, but a fairly smart kid. </p>
<p>She fell in love with an NMF scholarship school and its honor college, ASU, when she visited during music audition. To the point that after dragging her to a couple more auditions, I had to give up and let her cancel the rest. We were concerned about academics (she is also doing a math major) so she spent most of spring break visiting again- meeting students/faculty/advisors, going to numerous classes, overnights, exploring the area, etc. to be absolutely sure of her choice. </p>
<p>My H encouraged her to consider higher ranked more pricey alternatives to which she was admitted, like Vanderbilt, UMichigan, UNC, and our flagship down the street, UW-Madison, but she refused, is determined to attend ASU. The NMF scholarship pays full tuition/fees and music scholarship covers a good portion of rm/bd. </p>
<p>She is very happy to feel like she is earning her way through college by getting these scholarships, thrilled that she is not burdening us financially. And just started a job to pay for books/travel/misc. I admit to mixed feelings, have the same preconceived negative ideas about lower ranked schools as everyone else. But I’m feeling better about it with each passing day. I do think it will be fine.</p>
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<p>Absolutely. Why would you automatically assume that a school with ANY particular set of stats wouldn’t have excellent educational opportunities available? I’ve read SO MANY threads on CC where a student/parent won’t consider certain schools because they want to be “surrounded by people of the same intellectual level” or some other semantic version of the same garbage. Do these people really think that all “lower tier” schools (btw…lower tier based on what exactly? USNWR? public perception?) are completely populated by morons?</p>
<p>I define Value pretty simply…quality of product received for the given price. I simply don’t believe that the quality of education/experience received at many of the “name” schools is worth the bottom-line price differential.</p>
<p>These school aren’t THE answer to every middle-class family that finds themselves struggling to afford college for their kids, but it’s certainly AN answer. If you or anyone chooses to disregard that answer, that’s your choice. </p>
<p>I’d imagine many proud graduates of schools L, W, and N would be perfectly happy to tell you how flawed your logic is in their opinion.</p>
<p>Having just gone to an award dinner at our little local college here, a school that does not show up on this board very often, I can tell you that, yes, very good students can do very well at such schools. The dinner was awarding a Rhodes scholar from that school. I also can tell you that I know hundreds of grads that are doing very well , better than their ivy league counterparts in terms of jobs. Yes, my son put his nose up at a full scholarship from this school. Too close. Not enough pizazz, not enough prestige. But now that he is two years older, and wise, he can see that those kids who took the school up on their offer are not “losers” . They are doing very well, many better than he is. The better students are excelling, the ones who ended up there as their best academic match or choice, not so well. In fact, it might be said that a lot of those kids are doing better there, than they would have at a more selective school, more opportunities more amenaties, more choices. And, yes, I am an elitist snob myself, but will state what the reality of the situation is as I see it.</p>
<p>The Rhodes Scholar winner said emphatically that the chances of her getting such an award at an ivy, like Cornell were zip, zilch, zero. As her chances would have been to be on crew at an ivy. She was a valued active crew member at this school, and yes, those things count too. She comes from a “Cornell family” and knows the school well. She was able to do anything she wanted at this little school and got all the cream at the top of the bottle as top cat there. She would have been competing with many just like her at an ivy. This is a real life case.</p>
<p>Not just an anecdote either, in that I went to a top 25 national uni and let me tell you when there are limited spots for something at such schools, that’s when the term “Cut throat” becomes known. Wanna go to med school and have the best chances of getting in to one? Well, a small school with ACT student numbers like the ones Golffather shows might give you far better odds than when you are in the bottom half of the student academic prowess chart at a school. There are limited research and other such opportunities, and yes, again the term “cut throat” come into play. Maybe you won’t be competing with someone who cured cancer, yes, that is an exaggeration, but it’s not an exaggeration at all that half of those competing were Siemans finalists, or have parents very much in the fields who have already given these kids resume boosters. You can be behind before you have started at such schools. </p>
<p>With a full ride or close to it, or even for just plain old less money, you can pay for a lot of supplementation, tutoring and opportunities at a school that does not have the star stud cast of students. You had better hope you are retaining all that good stuff for say the MCATs when you are at a quarter million dollar school, cuz those prep courses make the SAT/ACT prep courses look like a penny arcade vs Las Vegas in terms of costs. Much easier to afford when you are getting a break on your college costs.</p>
<p>I want to make it clear that it is not an easy thing to go to East Mexico Institute of Tech, or Dravrah College in Wyoming on a free ride, and no, the experience is not going to be the same, no where near it, as going to even the name recognizable schools where you have half a chance of admittance overall. Not at all. Amenities, student life, facilities, equipment, all not going to be up there. But there are some gems out there that might work and in the long run be the best deal all around. So, I know what you are asking Golfather, and it is a valid question, but the answer is not the absolute “yes/no”. </p>
<p>A great list to examine is BobWallace’s list of universities that do have the research facilities. Those school can absolutely provide top grade education for student right up to the leading edge in many fields. I remember many years ago arguing with some moms, some friends about the best deal on their lists was Cleveland State, not some private school that has some more polish,much more expensive. 20 years later, when the pudding has been done, in that case, the proof is there. They spent even back then a small fortune, only to have to pay for the kids to go back to school, Cleveland State, i might add, to get marketable skills. And many of those kids who were in the lower half of the schools they attended, didn’t do so well at them and did not get the brass rings for the grabbing as they are hard to get. Nice they are there. Not helpful if your kid isn’t gonna get any.</p>
<p>I saw the predictions back 20 years ago and made the very wrong predictions that there was no way the costs would rise to those levels. I don’t think we could have saved for those levels anyways without compromising standard of living for all of us to a point that we just wouldn’t want to do it. Life is more than the colleges your kids attend. Though people might admire the dad who has three jobs and the mom who scrubs Port-a-Potties for the money to get their kids through college, I think that is an unhealthy way to live ones life. College is not the be all to end all, and I would not have wanted to hurt my parents lifestyles, health just to get to go to a college I wanted. Maybe selfish teens in the momentum of all of this will feel that way, but really when you sit down and evaluate one’s life, there is value to living in certain neighborhoods, having the square footage, having reliable cars, giving the kid piano, dance, lessons, having some vacations and going to some shows. There should be a balance of sorts.</p>
<p>So the burst of the bubble did not happen as I so predicted, but I feel it will come when many of these kids who have graduated do not find the jobs that family had expected them to get, and someone has to pay the loans taken to buy them that very expensive education.</p>