Why do people FALL OFF?

Parents Forum
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So I remember back in high school I interviewed for Harvard college with a guy who went to Harvard college, Harvard law school and did like an LLM or something at Yale, and who then worked on Wall street.

But he ended up working for some small law firm in the small town I lived in. he worked on things like misdemeanors, divorce, etc. and worked with guys who went to low-tier schools. I recall him talking with such joy about his days at Harvard and Wall street. Even though I was only in high school it was apparent that his life was a tragedy and just going lower and lower.

I interviewed in high school with another guy from MIT with a similar story–working as an average engineer.

I once met a surgeon who seemed destined for greatness. MD/PhD from Stanford, residency at a top place and then fellowship at a top place. But now he just works at some chain place and his co-workers are all from bottom-tier schools, you would expect him to become like a renown surgeon.

I guess you could argue that these people all make a good living financially. Thats true, but here’s the thing: All of them talk ceaselessly about their elite past. Its so obvious that they all enjoyed their past, but fell of the tracks for whatever reason.

I think its a tragedy. Very sad

So my question is: Why do people fall off???

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What?

Most Harvard graduates aren’t going to be doing extraordinary things.

That’s just the reality.

1660 people graduate from Harvard College a year.

There are currently 120,000 Harvard College graduates living in the world.

This is the weirdest post I’ve seen. Most Harvard grads are going to be upper-middle-class professionals, not world leaders.

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He graduated from Harvard law too, worked in Wall Street and now works at a small shop with state school grads, and you see nothing unusual???

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Working as an attorney at a small law firm along side state school grads means that “is apparent that his life was a tragedy and just going lower and lower.” Working as surgeon along side someone who attended less selective colleges is a “tragedy”? You have an interesting definition of tragedy.

I expect most graduates from highly selective colleges (as well as not highly selective colleges) would meet your definition of “tragedy.” In the overwhelming majority of fields, few people segregate by college attended, or pay much attention to college attended after first job.

For example, I attended Stanford for engineering – both undergrad and grad school. Throughout my career, a large portion of people I have worked with attended not particularly selective colleges, many of which are quite brilliant. I guess that makes my life a “tragedy.”

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For the surgeon, I expect him to be an academic surgeon, writing papers, etc. Its not who they work along side with, its the sort of work they do. I mean, I don’t see the point of having an MD/PhD and then such specialized training just to work at a community hospital doing nothing unique.

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I’m a retired software developer, and in a lot of the places I worked, we had programmers from elite universities sitting in little cubicles right next to programmers from schools you’ve never heard of. They’re all working on the same projects and code base. Are those programmers from elite universities failures?

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Your expectations and opinions about what type of job a person takes or what they do with their education are not only completely irrelevant, it’s none of your business nor concern. The things you are saying seem quite judgmental and harsh, it’s not for you to decide who is successful, or who’s taking the ‘right’ job, or doing worthwhile activities.

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I think that this is actually a great post! b/c it is a wonderful teachable moment for all the HS students who see going to a name-brand school as being the same as being set for life.

OP, the people you see as tragic might be actually be tragic: they might have been a high flyer on Wall St, but ‘fallen’ b/c their self-confidence turned into over-confidence, and drink / drugs / temptation to cheat /etc got the better of them. OR maybe they burned out / had a family crisis / etc. and left Wall St for something that was now more important to them.

This post is particularly interesting in light of other posts by the OP. In particular, the comments about how the prestige of being a doctor carries so much weight that people can even tell by the way you walk if you are surgeon or something not prestigious (the example was a speech pathologist). Apparently in med school now, the focus on prestige and stardom is clearly a driver for the OP, and (if you have top level credentials) anything less is a failure. You say you “expect” somebody who is / has X to do Y- but your expectations reflect you, and your life so far. You just aren’t there yet.

And, OP, that may stay true for you all your life- you may be that superstar surgeon. And your specific examples may well be people who simply ‘failed’ for come combination of personal weaknesses and bad luck.

BUT: you are missing two important middle pieces.

First, lots of people get the big prize- and find out that it doesn’t do for them what they thought it would*, so they make a different choice, or that they do it for a time and are then ready for something different. Look at the people you know who are super high-flyers: there is almost always a price paid in the personal life, and everybody decides for themselves how long they are willing to pay it. For some people, that is their whole career, others decide that they want a change.

I know a formerly big-wig MD like that, who now teaches science in a secondary school for special needs kids. He makes a tiny fraction of what he used to. None of his students are ever going to become high flyers- most will never get a college diploma. But they love his class and he loves teaching them, and 100% he does not see himself as a failure.

The other piece you are missing is how many of the people who are big names came from backgrounds you don’t notice b/c they aren’t famous names. One of the collegekids had a pediatric surgeon who is on any national top-10 list. He went to an UG college that I had genuinely never heard of- it was a remote branch of a remote state U, and went to a solid (but not tippy-top) med school. The drive and ability that it took to get that far is the same drive that has him at the very top of his profession.

ps, you are attuned to prestigious names, but I promise you whether it’s Harvard or State U, lots of people talk endlessly about their happy college life!

*look at people who get fame in any arena- performers, for example- and realize all the costs that come with it

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Well, happily for him, your expectations have no relevance. Why do you think they should?

Be curious, not judgmental. (Whitman, Lasso)

Allow yourself to consider that the surgeon’s chosen life may have meaning for him that’s beyond your own expectations. Perhaps your own expectations for yourself might be broadened.

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If someone is happy in their life, why in the world would someone else call that a tragedy? You need some perspective.

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In my friend group there are 5 MIT grads, a Stanford grad, a Dartmouth grad etc. None are world leaders. They all have good professional jobs, and we live in a nice. UMC town, but their lives and careers aren’t any different than those of their neighbors who went to more typical schools (LACs, state flagships etc). And, guess what, that’s fine. Most people, irregardless of what school they go to, are going to have regular lives.

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Some of this could come down to lifestyle. Working on Wall Street is brutal and some people aren’t willing to do that for very long. Academic medicine is not appealing to a lot of people and not well-paying. If you’re a surgeon, you could make 5 to 10 times that working in private practice. You also have control of your schedule vs being an employee.

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I think it’s absolutely wonderful that all of the people you mentioned found a work place that is excellent for them.

I call this landing exactly right
not falling off.

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I worked with a guy who went to MIT and then Harvard Law. He also happened to be from my small hometown and had gone to a U of Wisconsin branch for 2 years. Then he worked at the loan company. Yep, we were loan sharks. He was very very smart. He lived in Wisconsin and drove about an hour to work (Minneapolis) because he wanted to live in Wisconsin. He married later in life and had 2 small children.

The story about him was when he got his home mortgage in the mid 1970s, he told the lender “you have an issue with your Truth in Lending statements (which were fairly new at the time), and you owe me $2000 and my wife $2000, and for another $5000 I tell you what it is and you can fix it.” And they PAID, and he fixed their disclosure forms for that lender.

This guy was not a wall street, or supreme court guy. He wanted to live in a small town and raise his family and visit his parents in their small town. He wanted to go deer hunting Thanksgiving week without fail.

Another co-worker went to Williams and then Harvard law. He sat in a cube just like me (government job). He was not a great or gifted lawyer at all. Nice guy, just not brilliant. He wasn’t even the best lawyer in his unit, which included a woman who graduated first in her class from UF law, a fast talking grad from Wake Forest (he was a kick and the union rep for our group), their horrible, mean supervisor who they all ran from.

Harvard pumps out 500 lawyers a year. Do you think they are all going to rule the world?

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Sorry, but the whole premise of this post is incorrect.

There are many people who who are incredibly successful and attend no name colleges. Not everyone attending a famous college goes on to fame and fortune. Maybe they don’t want fame and fortune. Maybe the people you refer to are perfectly happy. Maybe they wanted to escape the rat race.

My D’s first real job out of college was with a Harvard teaching doctor who got his degree at a Cal State U. Not the same as a U of C. He never attended Harvard for anything. Yet there he is, working as a teaching doc at a very famous hospital.

It’s more likely that work experience and choices shape people’s life plans more than where they go to college. Lots of people get into HYPS and decided to go to, for example, WPI instead, as one of my friend’s kids did. Success can be found by attending any school.

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Many people eventually realize that their job/career is not who they are but simply what they do, and they begin to prioritize other things like having a family or finding balance in their life. This is a good thing, and not a tragedy, as living a full, well rounded and happy life is as worthwhile as focusing on success, achievement and advancement in one’s career. There is more than one way to be successful in life.

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Thirty years ago I sat in a business class with 2 future Fortune 200 CEO’s. It was at a regional public school in the south that no one on this thread would likely consider. Life is what you make of it.

Maybe the Wall Street gentleman made so much money that he’s off the treadmill and setting his own hours at the small company, getting health insurance and spending lots of time with his family. It may be the perfect arrangement.

Every surgeon I know is still paying off their school debts into their late 40’s.

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Well, you could look at it from another point of view
maybe he’d lived the fast and furious lifestyle and decided at some point that he wanted a quiet, simple life contributing to his local hometown community.

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— Counterculture-era phrase

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For some people the financial freedom, professional background or academic credentials to “successfully fall down” as you describe it is a goal.

The capacity and luxury to call your professional shot, contribute to a community, slow down, mentor, travel, etc, is often the culmination and reward of a lifetime of hard work and ambition.

A persons intelligence, work ethic and creativity aren’t defined by the academic institutions they attend. There are no guarantees of success based on school attended nor limitations based on those not attended.

OP I truly hope with time your perspective on what defines success and happiness can extend beyond what seem to be societal titles and material trappings.

Hopefully you will achieve your goal of being a doctor. I suspect you will quickly realize that health, happiness and sense of purpose are not only defined differently by different people but evolve over time based on the realities and challenges life throws at you.

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