Why do seemingly perfect students get rejected from Ivies?

[Data10]

<p>

Every school in the Ivy League is in the top 16, and half of those in the Ivy League comprise the top 4 schools in the nation

It depends on the measure. For example, the ARWU, QS, and Times World University rankings all agree that the ivies are not all ranked within the top 50 colleges in the united states (or top 100 in world). When I was looking at colleges, I was focused on engineering. I haven’t seen an engineering ranking list that puts any ivies within the top 5 (in some cases, no ivies in top 20). However, if you were ranking based on oldest private colleges in the northeast, I believe 7 of the top 8 would be ivies. Different measures yield very different results.</p>

[ArtsandLetters]

<p>Well said, Dusty pig.</p>

<p>In the 80’s MIT was taking one in three applicants. Now the pile has exploded and the acceptance rate is less than 1 in 12. I tell students to mediate their expectations because even if they are the best - the competition is fierce, has similar stats, and there is just not enough place for everyone – at any college these days.</p>

<p>It has gotten very rough for students - something I think the Common App has made worse by allowing unlimited choices to any student with the ability to pay. I think the decision by many colleges to change their supplements to be college specific (thus making it impossible for a student to recycle answers from school to school) is a brilliant move that may cut down on “serial appliers” listing 20+ </p>

<p>But that doesn’t explain why MIT has exploded. They’re not on the Common App. I think too many students are pushed to apply to schools based on reputation - instead of whether it is the best fit - and as a result the yields become very tight.</p>

<p>So I agree that a student who finds themselves at a second or third choice school may find a peer group just as academically strong and passionate. Simply because that is how the numbers are starting to work out these days. More sought-after competitive colleges are having to say “no room at this inn.” :-(</p>

[LucieTheLakie]

<p>Great post, dustypig. Reminded me of that Atlantic article from a decade ago, “Who needs Harvard?”</p>

<p><a href=“Who Needs Harvard? - The Atlantic”>Who Needs Harvard? - The Atlantic;

<p>Seriously, though, what is it about this topic? Fourteen pages later and we’re still making the same arguments to young people who refuse to give up their magical thinking about the “Ivy League” brand.</p>

[Mastadon]

<p>Pizza Girl-</p>

<p>Actually, those of us that have lived in the northeast all our lives know that ivy is classified as an invasive species that is extremely difficult to control once it takes root. That probably explains why the term has become so pervasive on CC.</p>

<p>So for those who have no direct experience with ivies, be careful what you wish for - even the folks at Harvard and Yale are trying to get rid of it!</p>

<p><a href=“HARVARD PLANS TO STRIP THE IVY FROM ITS WALLS - The New York Times”>http://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/21/us/harvard-plans-to-strip-the-ivy-from-its-walls.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Yale fights the war on ivy - Yale Daily News”>http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2009/10/02/yale-fights-the-war-on-ivy/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[Pizzagirl]

<p>"Therefore those “second tier’ schools are actually well stocked with high-achieving, intelligent kids (including valedictorians, 2400 SATs, the whole works). So doesn’t that make those “second tier” schools actually “first tier?” If students like the OP’s friend, and thousands of others with amazing stats, are “reduced” to attending schools outside the top 20, then the top 20 label simply doesn’t mean much anymore. The best and the brightest young people in our country are now attending the top 50 schools, or wherever you draw that line.”</p>

<p>This would seem like common sense!! Well said. </p>

[sally305]

<p>^I agree. I nominate dustypig for best new poster of 2014.</p>

[theyeahman]

<p>2 points</p>

<ol>
<li><p>In life, nobody is owed anything. OP is bitter because they felt like their “seemingly perfect” child was rejected by all the Ivies. First of all, the child clearly didn’t seem perfect to the admissions committee, there are thousands of very bright students who also do math and science competitions and lead a youth group. The kid was probably good enough to handle the workload, but so can other kids who are virtuoso violin players, or professional artists, or stand-up comedians. OP’s child doesn’t deserve to go to an ivy just because his stats are in the range. Getting a 2360 on the SAT means you deserve a 2360 on the SAT, nothing else.</p></li>
<li><p>Someone claimed that it was unfair for athletes with relatively poor grades to attend top tier schools because other, slightly smarter, students could put the degree to better use. It is selfish to consider only what you can get from a college rather than what you can put into it. Why should they care if you get the degree? There are thousands of kids who can do the work to get an ivy league degree. The school wants to see what you can contribute to the community. As an athlete, you contribute much more than a standard degree-recipient.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Stop being so selfish.</p>

[fluffy2017]

<p>

They’re downplaying the fact that the Ivy League as all the top schools in the US

</p>

<p>No, they don’t as all the top schools in the US.
There are other schools that have higher rankings (see Forbes, see that international study, etc).
There are other schools that are far harder to get into.</p>

[fluffy2017]

<p>

All I meant was that Ivy League is general and short-term for “top school.”

</p>

<p>Wrong.</p>

<p>If I want to discuss Stanford, MIT or U Chicago, I can say “top school” (since they are) but I can’t say “Ivy League” since none of them are in the Ivy League. So the term Ivy League really isn’t a good short-term for “top school” is it?</p>

<p>BTW, how is “Ivy League” which is 2 words with 9 letters total “short-term” for “top school” which is 2 words with 9 letters total? Where did the shortening happening? </p>

<p>You might want to quit while you are behind.</p>

[LanaHere]

<p>^^ smart a$$. Funny though. :)</p>

[Periwinkle]

<p>You’re all overlooking an important point. </p>

<p>Where did he apply in the early round? Even if he were perfect, that might count against him at schools which know they were not his favorite. With strong test scores, class rank, yada yada, it’s logical to assume he took a shot at his top choice early.</p>

[tk21769]

<p>

It seems to me that “top” just means “hardest to get into.” … But this has nothing to do with either the objective quality of the education you can get at School X, nor with whether you, as an individual, will actually be happy there. It’s purely reputation.

</p>

<p>“Top” does not just mean “hardest to get into”. The highest-ranking colleges also generally have smaller classes, higher-paid faculty, higher 4y graduation rates, and much better need-based aid than much lower-ranked colleges. College applicants and their families, collectively, are not ignorant of these differences. Abundant, detailed information is available to guide them in their choices; many students agonize for a year or more over this information. To the extent free market forces are working, colleges with the best objective quality will tend to enroll the highest concentrations of students with the best qualifications. Those are the students with the greatest freedom of choice, because they tend to get the most offers with the best financial aid. To the extent they are informed consumers they will tend collectively to choose the “best” colleges.</p>

<p>I agree that a rising tide of college applications probably has, in some respects, lifted the academic quality of many colleges. Demographic trends have driven up not only the number of college applications but also the number of PhDs competing for college teaching jobs. Unfortunately, the same trends have not reduced average class sizes or driven down tuition costs. They’ve done the opposite. The country has not responded by building many more colleges (certainly not many more with small classes, first-rate facilities and big research budgets.) Almost all the “top” colleges are at least 100 years old (built when the country was a fraction of its current size and with a much smaller percentage of HS graduates.) </p>

<p>Meanwhile, college admission tests have not been refined or made more challenging to make finer distinctions among “top” students applying to “top” colleges. Faced with a glut of objectively well-qualified applicants competing for a more of less fixed number of spots, “top” colleges resort to subjective factors and “hooks”. I can appreciate the various reasons why they do that. I also can appreciate why, after 14 pages, the OP still isn’t satisfied with our answers. </p>

[Mastadon]

<p>A graduation speech from one of the towns in the Boston suburbs…</p>

<p><a href=“You Are Not Special Commencement Speech from Wellesley High School - YouTube”>You Are Not Special Commencement Speech from Wellesley High School - YouTube;

[Letgoofmyego]

<p>Ivy Leagues want original, not cookie cutter. Asian or not. You said his essays were <em>good</em>, not fabulous, not creative, not anything interesting. And there doesn’t sound like anything <em>interesting</em> or <em>unique</em> about this individual. I don’t know this to be the case, however, it’s not exactly the way you have presented him. The only chances you have to be admitted to a top Ivy, in my opinion, other than for sheer originality and brilliance are: #1. Athletics. you are a top high school athlete recruited in the country (and the school wants YOU to play on their team). #2. Underrepresented minority from non affluent family. #3. Legacy - The other factor which weighs heavily is legacy which is still a considerably ridiculously strongly weighted criteria at Princeton, Yale and Harvard given the sheer number of quality applicants, including many Asians with ‘perfect’ grades, scores, etc. </p>

<p>I don’t recall, in the original post here, that this individual met any of these criteria. </p>

<p>Also, consider the attitude of Harvard University President who gives you some sense of her perspective on the Asian undergraduate applicant. She made her preferred criteria explicit in a television news interview a couple of years ago. Harvard likes to recruit (and gives preference to) children of wealthy, high profile Asians, preferably from China. She says this quite unapologetically. Not all Ivy League share the same orientation. Rather than accepting a high percentage of Asian students, they have opted for diversity. Otherwise, there is nothing particularly remarkable about being Asian in terms of being an applicant. Ivy League get plenty of applications from them. I would imagine it would work against you, if anything. Sheer test scores, grades and brilliance plus Asian doesn’t guarantee entry to Ivy League. </p>

<hr>

<p>Beyphy comments follow, posted earlier in thread, worth repeating, 100% true!</p>

<p>I have discussed this issue at length, especially with regard to Asian americans.</p>

<p>One of the biggest factors why people are surprised at their rejection is because they thought their high scores would virtually ‘guarantee’ them a position at one of these prestigious institutions. This is despite the fact that many of these institutions have admit rates in the single digits, and have very high yields. That fact of the matter is that a 2360 really isn’t as special as you think it is. For example:
Last year, she said, Princeton rejected about half of all the applicants who had perfect SAT scores – and in doing so rejected people of a range of ethnicities. “Princeton doesn’t discriminate against Asian Americans,” she said.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/14/princeton#ixzz2wECAtird”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/14/princeton#ixzz2wECAtird&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Having a high (or perfect) SAT scores and some ECs is not enough to get you into these schools with very low admit rates, and very high yield.</p>

<p>What might make someone with lower scores get accepted? Well, it could be a variety of reasons. Xi Mingze, for example, is the daughter of Xi Jinping, who’s the general secretary and president of the People’s Republic of China. She’s currently (or was) enrolled in Harvard under a fake name.
Xi Jinping, the man scheduled to become President of China next year, is just one of many Chinese elite who has sent his children to an Ivy League School.</p>

<p><a href=“Xi Mingze Harvard Article Goes Viral”>Xi Mingze Harvard Article Goes Viral;

<p>It’s much more important to Harvard to have as its alumni the children of the elite Chinese politburo (among other rich and powerful people) than it is to comprise its class of students with just perfect (or high) SAT scores. And when you’re competing with people like that, unless you’re similarly hooked, you really don’t stand a chance. And yes, the Ivies get many applicants like that, even applying to schools like Cornell.</p>

<p>And I’ve said all of the above, without even getting into legacies, which a Stanford university study has shown can increase chances of getting admitted significantly.</p>

<p><a href=“New study finds that legacy status is a strong advantage at elite universities”>http://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/01/10/legacy_status/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>At the end of the day, your friend got into some very fine colleges and will likely have a very successful career out of college. It’s not really the end of the world if he didn’t get into an Ivy.</p>

[Nrdsb4]

<p>

Quote - I don’t want the same thing happening to my siblings or kids in the future… How can I tell them to work hard in high school, when there is nothing to work towards besides four years in a city or state institution (not that these are in anyway bad).

</p>

<p>

But the value of hard work goes deeper and longer than the college acceptances. My S is similar to your friend, so going into this application season, we weren’t sure about the outcome. Do we care? Sure! But if he doesn’t get in his top choice, will we question the hard work that he put in throughout the middle and high school years, which has made him incredibly focused, disciplined, efficient, and mature? Absolutely not! Those intangible values will benefit him for the rest of his life, and he clearly is aware of that.

</p>

<p>This. I’m not really believing the OP is for real. If here were, he would know that hard work, discipline, participating in sports, clubs, and in activities which give the student the opportunity to see others who are less fortunate and get the tremendous benefit of working to make those peoples’ lives better, etc. all work to shape and mold that individual into a good citizen of the world. The point of doing those things is not to do them as a means of getting into Ivy League school X, but to develop that student as a human being. Someday that student will want to graduate into a working adult, and having a background of hard work, discipline, et al will give him the qualities which will make him appealing to an employer, or will give him the background necessary to start his own business or achieve in whatever ways are meaningful to him. </p>

<p>As to the other kids at the HS who were “less qualified,” total bull. The OP has NO WAY of knowing that these kids were less deserving. He didn’t read their essays (and even if he did, what makes him so sure that he’s qualified to judge their merit), he didn’t read their LORs, he is not all knowing as to their ECs and the passion they bring to them, or the quality of their total package with respect to meeting the school’s objectives for that particular class. </p>

<p>Finally, all these posts about how the Ivies “should” fill their classes: who is the OP or anyone else to decide which factors “should” be the most important?! These are private schools. They are free to decide what’s important to them when choosing their students. They and the people they designate to fulfill their mission are the ones whose opinions matter with regard to choosing their students, and they’ve CLEARLY decided that stats and grades are only important in terms of making that big reject pile and that those kids MUST bring something more to the table than that. Could the OP’s friend have done well at these schools? Sure, along with thousands of others who were also rejected. Given the supply/demand, I’d say No, OP, it is NOT surprising, NOT IN THE LEAST, that your “friend” was rejected from four Ivies. </p>

[Letgoofmyego]

<p>OPs comment : *@lookingforward, I read this students essay, and trust me he did not “blow the essay” He used the same essay for NYU, BC, and others, and was accepted to them all. *</p>

<p>That’s a problem. You are not suppose to submit the same essay to all of the schools. You need to write personal essays or versions of your original essay response that is appropriate to the school you apply. They are not looking for ‘cookie cutter’. They are looking for original. If he was wait listed for UoC, that might have been the reason. You need a very, very strong ‘original’ essay, not an essay another adult read and thought was ver good… or even excellent. They don’t want ‘perfect’, admissions wants ‘original’. Still not seeing anything ‘original’ posted here… What exactly did he write about?</p>

<p>another OPs comment * - @tk21769, forgot to mention he got into Tuftsand BC as well. Well that is because that is all he applied to, in addition to the four ivies. He didn’t select his schools off of the US News and World Report Rankings.*</p>

<p>Wow! Certainly wouldn’t want to go to Tufts for premed! Horrible choice! <em>eyes roll</em> and also rejecting Georgetown for premed was also a good choice. One shudders to think…</p>

<p>And…</p>

<p>- @CE527M, he got into NYU, Northeastern, BU, Case Western, UBuff, and some state schools. So not really a bad listing of choices, but knowing his high school career, I do find it surprising that 4 Ivies seemed to selectively decide against him lol. But I guess he is satisfied with where he is now…</p>

<p>Not exactly lol. More like end of the world. I guess he won’t have a shot at medical school or as supreme court justice or be president of the united states. Or you wouldn’t have posted, right?</p>

<p>The more replies I read from the original poster, the whinier, arrogant, defensive and more sour grape it seems to get in attitude and flavor. The student applied to 4 Ivy Leagues, but apparently did not consider schools based off the US New and World rankings Well, may I suggest if you have a future opportunity to help a kid apply for college, that <em>might</em> be a good place to start. And why did he not apply to ALL the Ivy Leagues if he was so determined to attend one of them? Why did he assume (obviously incorrectly) that he was going to get admitted to an ivy as if he were entitled? Another option: he <em>might</em> have also considered applying for more non ivy leagues rather than assume he would get admitted to an ivy. Why is it deemed so incredulous that an Asian with prefect scores, a zillion extracurricular, did all the <em>right</em> things, played by the <em>rules</em> and blah, blah got rejected by Ivy League schools? Guess what? Other people who responded here are correct when they say there is considerable competition for a very few spots! The point worth repeating again, schools don’t look at class rank, test scores and grades alone. It’s the total package, and unless you sit on the admissions board, there’s no way you know with what happened with his application. The truth is, no one knows for sure why he got rejected with any certainty. It happened. Things happen despite our best intentions. And life isn’t always fair as we perceive it. And as unsettling and disconcerting as it might seem life can even be arbitrary. </p>

<p>Incidentally, my daughter goes to UoC, it’s ranked #5, but not Ivy League. She’s not crying over the fact she got rejected by Yale and is not in an ivy. Is my daughter inferior to someone at Harvard or Princeton or superior to someone from Emory, Dartmouth, UCBerkeley or any other school? What wrong with being accepted to Tufts? Or going there? Does he bring dishonor to his family and friends by choosing accept admittance to such a low brow, low ranking exceedingly inferior academic institution as you seem to suggest? You aren’t exactly coming across as a great role model. Why not accept the fact he didn’t get into an Ivy League school? So what? There is more to life than Harvard, Yale and Princeton. I hope as an adult, you have taught him that much. The world will not end. It is possible for him to still get an excellent education. It is possible to succeed. It’s possible to be happy. Why not approach life from a place of gratitude? Maybe he should be grateful he has the ability to go to a top university or a university at all. Not everyone has such an opportunity. These kids are the elite - special in some ways, more privileged than others, but certainly not superior. We all need to get a reality and ego check.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Yes, you submit one big essay in your CA and the CA actively discourages modifications. If a kid could even figure how to do that, with the new format. Not to mention, a kid has to understand what a college looks for, in the essay. To a savvy adult, this isn’t a huge challenge. But so many hs kids lack that perspective.</p>

<p>Yes, seen one way, they are looking for variants of cookie cutter- first, with respect to what a kid reached for, committed to and achieved, It’s wrong to suggest the are looking for outliers or the extreme ends of the Bell Curve. The issue here is that so many high school kids don’t understand what that means; they have only their own hs context to look at. </p>

<p>When some say a kid may have been only focused on his or her studies, that’s what it refers to-- this lack of ability to pick up his head and look further. This is NOT judged based on rigor and stats alone. They don’t assume a top performer is going to be boring. It’s after stats that they look at activities and the perspective a kid shows and how that is fleshed out or shown throughout the app. </p>

<p>You get a sense of how a kid thinks by his judgments- some in his history in high school, some by how he represents himself in the application. Obviously part of that is choosing rigor, getting top grades and good scores. But it is also, as Nrds points out (and some others,) what more he chooses and pursues, what is for his own interests, what is for his/her groups (high school or church, culture, whatever,) what is for the community, because he can see beyond the four walls of his hs and roll up his sleeves. That’s what gives adcoms a sense of how you will operate in their college community. </p>

[dustypig]

<p>Sally305, Pizzagirl, ArtsandLetters, and LucietheLakie – thanks! </p>

[Picapole]

<p>Have enjoyed this thread, especially Jonri’s analogy about Guys and Dolls (saving it for my younger kids) and dusty pig’s comments. I also really appreciated momofmusician17’s story.</p>

<p>I too don’t see how someone could enjoy Columbia and Dartmouth equally. Nor do I see how a “friend” would post for 15 pages about another high school senior. I vote the OP is either the rejected student, or his parent. </p>

<p>Wish that a certain subset of this board would give the URM and athlete stereotypes a rest, but I’m not holding my breath. </p>

[sundaypunch]

<p>The OP can’t seem to come to terms that colleges aren’t required to limit their admits to those with the highest stat’s. It’s going to be even more of a shock when he enters the workplace and finds that employers don’t always choose the applicant with the highest GPA, most experience, or most impressive alma mater (hey, that’s not fair!). They want the right fit for the “team”. </p>

<p>As for the specifics of the student in question, didn’t he apply to something like 20 schools? It’s very possible that his essays showed no real passion for the particular schools that rejected him.</p>