<p>thus why I don't say it to their faces.
Like I said, I love them. I hang out with them all the time. Yet, I strongly dislike having to re-explain in-class discussions and teachers' lectures to them.</p>
<p>Note that there isn't as much diversity at state schools because of all the people who come from in-state. I think that fact alone makes the environment at a more cosmopolitan campus more intellectually broad and stimulating.</p>
<p>Right now, I live in Grays West - the Harvard Hilton. I'm a summer school student. I have an interview with a Harvard admissions officer and I wanted you guys to tell me what to say in case they ask me "Why do you want to go to Harvard and not a state school".</p>
<p>Ain't I a stinker?</p>
<p>Thanks everyone.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be proud that you’re attending an Ivy League. We all know that it’s not easy getting in, so you do have something to be proud of. But, it seems like several of the posters here have let it go to their heads. I mean, what is this crap about the evils of “average” and “normal” students?</p>
<p>fabrizio, please don't misunderstand me. Never never never would I say anything along the lines of "because I make good grades, have good scores, want to go to an Ivy, etc...I am somehow <em>better</em> than 'average' students." </p>
<p>Everyone seems to mistake my academic preferences for personal ones. Yes, judging by all the facts, I am "smarter" than most of my friends. However, many of them are more talented athletically or artistically, or are more empathetic and caring than me. By saying that I prefer to be in an academic environment with "above average" students does NOT mean that I think I am "better" than anyone else!</p>
<br>
<p>Sounds like you're speaking from experience, spades.</p>
<br>
<p>Oh absolutely.</p>
<p>Hey, in my years as an undergrad, professional school and graduate school student, I amassed my share of awards and prize money. </p>
<p>I'm out of the "academic" rat race now. But have I stopped learning? My hobby is writing papers. Perhaps you folks folks are into reading textbooks, but I write ophthalmology papers, as<em>a</em>hobby.</p>
<p>Speaking of experience, are you indexed on Medline? Or published?</p>
<p>You gotta know when to pass the torch. The kid cohort (16-25) win a whole bunch of awards, cause practically all the awards in our society is geared towards them. We all award "promise". But once you're out of the loop, then there really isn't much to win. There's no 40 year-old mid-career awards for "outstanding" learner. That doesn't mean those individuals are any less motivated. Nor does it mean they are "weaker" than 21 year olds who are winning scholarships. Think about it - I'd say (easily) >95% of "awards" are aimed for the 16-25 cohort. But there are folks in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s who are all previous such "recipients". They aren't being regularly distinguished with "Best" this, or "Most outstanding" that. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't be, if they were 21.</p>
<p>So yeah, speaking from experience? Yes.</p>
<br>
<p>14<em>of</em>spades, you (and several of the pro-Ivy posters) are talking in generalizations that are almost impossible to debate. Stick with claims which have some empirical basis. My claims are:</p>
<br>
<p>These are fine. I could argue some minutiae with you (e.g. that it's the student's actual TALENT, and not their school name, that got them great jobs after graduation), but that's not the big point.</p>
<p>I'm talking about the bubble. People who choose HYPS to remain in the bubble. </p>
<p>At some point, these folks will have to leave the bubble of being an education consumer, to becoming a generator of income by being a provider of services (whether it is as a doctor, lawyer, janitor, or ice cream vendor). It's at this junction that your skills at navigating the "real" world becomes important, and not your skill at evading "normal" people so that you can get high on intellectual stimulation.</p>
<br>
<p>IAmYourMother! wrote: I don't know where did you go for ugrads but you certainly do not deserve a place at an Ivy League.</p>
<br>
<p>Hey - if you're contributing to the academic literature long after you've graduated while maintaining a stable job, then come back and talk. (Does any of your family satisfy this? Are they more or less "deserving" of a place than me?)</p>
<p>Or is reading and regurgitation on an exam (all the whilst getting that "A" average) what qualifies to be an Ivy leaguer?</p>
<p>Hey - about learning. You get an A-average and learn little, or a C-average and learn a lot. which do you choose?</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's at this junction that your skills at navigating the "real" world becomes important, and not your skill at evading "normal" people so that you can get high on intellectual stimulation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree 100%, but I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant. Your points seem to be that a) there's more to success than your degree and b) factors other than your academic ability play a big part in how successful you are. Once again, I agree, but I still don't see why this means it's not worthwhile to attend an Ivy.</p>
<p>There were some posts on the first page made by some people that suggested they were selecting Harvard cause they hated being around "normal" people.</p>
<p>I thought there was a pretty big "bubble burst" just going from HS to Uni...</p>
<p>My D is choosing to attend H because she is compelled to put herself amongst the most talented students and teachers possible. She likes challenge.</p>
<p>
[quote]
* The faculty at Ivy League schools are on average better than the faculty at state schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How do you define "better?" Winning a nobel prize does not qualify someone as a great teacher.</p>
<p>Here you are telling 14<em>of</em>spades not to generalize, but you're doing the same. Nice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
* The students at Ivy League schools are on average higher achievers higher achievers both inside and outside the classroom than their counterparts at state schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can see that, I guess. But I don't see how this is a good reason to go to an ivy. What's so appealing about being around overachievers?</p>
<p>I find overachievers rather annoying.</p>
<p>
[quote]
* Ivy League schools have a higher endowment per student than state universities
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They're also pretty darn expensive compared to state universities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
* Ivy League schools have better track records placing grads at top graduate and professional schools and in competitive, high-paying jobs such as investment banking and consulting.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it is more because the students at ivy leagues have the qualities that grad schools are looking for. The sole reason they get into certain grad schools is not because of the name of the school they go to, silly.</p>
<p>A student can attain those same qualities at a good state uni.</p>
<p>
[quote]
From these I conclude that a student who is admitted to an Ivy League school and a state university will:</p>
<pre><code>* find the Ivy League school to be more intellectually stimulating
[/quote]
</code></pre>
<p>How so? You don't even need a school to find intellectual stimulation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
* have greater resources to pursue extracurricular activities with similarly motivated students at the Ivy League school
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'd like specific examples, please. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
* increase his/her opportunities to succeed in post-graduate pursuits by attending the Ivy League school over the state university
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Explain please. I'm curious.</p>
<p>Jman - rebut this: Ivy League school's have an international reputation superior to a public institutions reputation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How do you define "better?" Winning a nobel prize does not qualify someone as a great teacher.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'll gladly concede the point about teacher quality. I've been very happy with the teaching ability of my Princeton professors, but I don't know how to measure this objectively. By better, I meant objective standards of scholarship such as research funding, frequency of publication citations, and so on. It's advantageous to be around these professors because you have the opportunity to do research with scholars who are truly on the cutting edge. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But I don't see how this is a good reason to go to an ivy. What's so appealing about being around overachievers?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's obviously a personal preference. I enjoy having top students for classmates for the following reasons:</p>
<p>[ul]
[<em>]more stimulating discussions both in and after class
[</em>]professors teach material at a higher level than they would be able to if students were not as capable (especially true in my major)
[li]drives me to succeed[/li][/ul]</p>
<p>I enjoy being around students who are active in EC's because it is likely that whatever EC's I participate in will have other participants who are equally dedicated. This helps make the club or organization successful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They're also pretty darn expensive compared to state universities.
[/quote]
Believe me, I know. For some (I'm thinking mostly of merit aid winners), it makes sense financially to go to a state university. But Ivies have made great strides to become affordable for everyone. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I think it is more because the students at ivy leagues have the qualities that grad schools are looking for. The sole reason they get into certain grad schools is not because of the name of the school they go to, silly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I addressed this issue in a previous [url=<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/533716-why-do-you-want-go-ivy-league-university-instead-state-university.html?p=1060665886%5Dpost%5B/url">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/533716-why-do-you-want-go-ivy-league-university-instead-state-university.html?p=1060665886]post[/url</a>]. In some cases, such as law school, your undergraduate institution doesn't matter a great deal. In others, such as investment banking, it matters a lot. You make connections at these schools that you just can't make anywhere else.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How so? You don't even need a school to find intellectual stimulation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No and I never said that you did. I said that if you wanted outside sources of stimulation, the Ivy will do a better job.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd like specific examples, please [about why a bigger endowment matters].
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Princeton (and other Ivies) offer substantial funding so that students can accept unpaid internships, spend a summer abroad, etc. Princeton has For students on financial aid who fail to meet the summer earnings expectation, Princeton will just give you half of it. Princeton does not include loans in its financial aid package. These are some of the advantages of attending a school with a large endowment.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Explain please [about increased postgraduate success]. I'm curious.
[/quote]
Ibanking...jk it helps for other things as well. Check out molliebatmit's posts on the subject.</p>
<p>After typing all of this, I'd just like to emphasize that the students and the quality of the education are what really make it worth it in my opinion. I'm being challenged like never before, both by my professors and by my classmates. I understand that some people may not think it's important, but for me it is.</p>
<p>Hearing how intelligent people like Weaseal are encourages me to work even harder so that I too one day will be able to go to an Ivy League school.</p>
<p>Btw Dr. Science - Apley Court is traditionally referred to as the Harvard Hilton. Congrats on summer school though. How's it treating you?</p>
<p>
[quote]
[quote]
Quote:
They're also pretty darn expensive compared to state universities.
[/quote]
Believe me, I know. For some (I'm thinking mostly of merit aid winners), it makes sense financially to go to a state university. But Ivies have made great strides to become affordable for everyone.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can personally attest to the improvements in financial aid - I'm paying slightly less than most people who are attending the local state university.</p>
<p>I know a lot of people at state schools and a few at Ivies. They are different crowds, and one is not objectively "better" than the other. Deciding which one you want to be with while you earn your education is a matter of personal preference.</p>
<p>I like the way my Ivy school feels. It fits me... I would not be happy at the state university. It's just a poor match. These are the complicated and emotional factors that go into making a decision.</p>
<p>With regards to cost: Harvard was by FAR the cheapest of the 9 schools I was accepted to. With their awesome financial aid, cost really isn't an issue anymore.</p>