Why does the GC dislike Harvard?

Parent Cafe
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<p>"I do want to say one thing -- some people don't agree with me, but here it is: I don't think that it is just a matter of "luck" to get into Harvard. I think that many who get in are more savvy about the application process and are able to present themselves in a better light, or know how to play up their strengths in an effective way; and I think that some who do not get in are rejected or waitlisted because they failed to put together an attention-getting application, even though they may have excellent grades and test scores."</p>

<p>Having interviewed Harvard applicants over a period of 15 years, I actually don't think that's the case. I have never seen anyone get into Harvard that surprised me. I have seen lots of students not get into Harvard who seemed to be surprised that that they did not.</p>

<p>What's important to realize is that the field of Harvard applicants is incredible, and, as someone here said, the things that may stand out as being outstanding in a student's high school or community may be routine in the Harvard pool. In addition, the things that impress many teachers -- such as students who unquestioningly do what's needed to get As -- are not the things that make students stand out in the pool either. What stands out are students who get the high grades and also have out of the box thinking , unusual passions, or a strong, demonstrated passion for something academic or extracurricular.</p>

<p>There also is the luck factor in that since 85% of students who apply to Harvard have the qualifications to get accepted, what gets people accepted often is having some factor that is needed to create a well rounded class. That may be knowing an unusual lanaguage, being tops in a particular sport, being from an unrepresented region or a number of factors, many of which have to do with things that are beyond the student's control.</p>

<p>So, the bottom line is that if a student is interested in Harvard, s/he should apply and use sites like this and guidebooks to do their best application possible. Afterward, the student should assume that they will be like the 9 in 10 students who do not get in, so the student should set their heart on a more realistic dream school. If the student does get into Harvard, s/he can always change their mind and decide to go there, which is what the majority of Harvard's accepted students choose to do. </p>

<p>Also check the Harvard board here to look at the stats and backgrounds of students who were rejected and accepted this year. That will help you see what the competition is like. One also can get some good tips on that board -- particularly from alums and current students.</p>

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<p>"In short, C has been the best they have ever had because C is near perfect. "</p>

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<p>Sokkermom:</p>

<p>Thank you for quoting that line. It was one of several lines in the original post that raised hoax message warning flags for me.</p>

<p>The other one is the claim that a high school kid has all nine college application essays finished in August. Who's foolin' who? We're parents!</p>

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<p>Nomadmom -
If finances are a consideration, or even if they're not, take a good look at the Emory Scholars program. (Keep in mind the early deadline.) </p>

<p>I agree with much of what was said above. Like Marite's son, my daughter wrote a lot of essays before she chose the one she sent to Harvard in her SCEA application. We also wanted to compare financial aid packages.</p>

<p>I would ask the GC if there is some reason that she knows of that students have not been accepted to Harvard. Is it that they don't apply or are students rejected on a regular basis? There is one Ivy (not HYP) that accepts no one from our high school either. No one gets it. The rumors fly about the fact that someone backed out of ED, etc. Who knows? </p>

<p>I do agree with CalMom that no matter what the stats, an attention-getting application is crucial.</p>

<p>There may not be an element of luck, but as Northstarmom says, the schools know what they are looking for and they also know the odds that students will accept or decline their offers. My daughter thought long and hard about applying to U Penn ED. After several visits, she decided to apply RD as she was not ready to lock in to that school, though she really liked it a lot. The GC told me that she had a great shot ED but likely was giving up her acceptance possibility by not applying early. (About 30% of their accepted applicants come from ED, according to what we heard at their info session.) Our GC was right. She did not get into Penn, though I thought her application was one of her own best. </p>

<p>One more word of advice. Have all the apps done early. There is nothing worse than having to complete applications on the heels of a rejection.</p>

<p>Also, be sure you are aware of which schools are looking for demonstrated interest - like Emory.</p>

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<p>twinmom :</p>

<p>very practical advice.</p>

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<p>I am not sure the original question is in fact the question, but no matter. </p>

<p>If the counselor in question is the one writing the school's recommendation I would take the comments as very significant. This does not mean the student shouldn't apply to Harvard or any other school, but to my way of thinking there is a degree of significance to what is being said, particularly if the student is indeed as portrayed. This is not the 'sure aim high but keep your bases covered' speech that many high-aspirers hear.</p>

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<p>northstarmom, I have had the opposite experience. As a teacher working with students on a daily basis, I think I get to know them better than just one interview. Our experience in our school has been that the students that we all knew should have been accepted, weren't and the ones that were, have us shaking our heads. This is not to say that the kids that were accepted were total duds, not true, but certainly not the caliber that we all associated with H. These couldn't think out of the box or be creative if their lives depended on them, but they were athletes with pretty good, but not stellar SAT's, top 10%. They take direction and coaching well. We have heard their grades are OK, not wonderful. Princeton, however, has not surprised us at all. So, it sounds to me as though the GC knows the situation and is trying to make sure that C doesn't fall in love with a school with the iffy admissions that the ivies have, and "Love her safety." If accepted, wonderful! If not, join the ranks of many future Nobel prize winners that weren't accepted at H.</p>

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<p>"The other one is the claim that a high school kid has all nine college application essays finished in August. Who's foolin' who? We're parents"</p>

<p>My daughter has her nine done. This is the nature of her personality. She begins early and works diligently on everything. THe prospect of being late for something important and having to rush causes her such anxiety that she never allows herself to be in that position. She is never going to be a candidate for an Ivy League college, but she is responsible, timely and organized.</p>

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<p>Well with three years limited data available from elite prep school to elite colleges, it appears that majority of kids who were NMS and top 10% in GPA and have very High SAT 1/SATII and AP scores were not going to HYP (face book, school grapevine, and school marketing materials etc.) School newspaper published NMS, top 10% and any kids who achived any AP scholar awards etc.</p>

<p>Yet probably 25% of the class matriculated to Ivy League alone. If you add top 25 Colleges, probably 75% (this number is a gross estimate) matriculated to these Colleges. Most kid who went to HYP may have good academic records but they have other things such as rich foreign nationals, legacy kids, recruited athletes, URM status and excellent credential in extracurricular activities. There may be some other factors which I do not know. </p>

<p>Third observation, majority of kids going to Stanford belongs to west coast. MIT kids were very well known stars in math and science. </p>

<p>Prep school admission data just points that academic is only one factor that HYP looks for. My observation is very limited and has no way to predict any conclusive facts.</p>

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<p>I suspect, also with almost no evidence, that the real question is "Why does the GC dislike my (pretty much) perfect child?"</p>

<p>This is a very different question, by the way, and yet it doesn't really change the validity of any of the answers given.</p>

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<p>1sokkermom -
""In short, C has been the best they have ever had because C is near perfect. "</p>

<p>Wow. I didn't think that was possible. I hope C is also just a kid for C's sake."</p>

<p>I know one that's pretty close to perfect and a good kid - they do exist! I looked over essays and the college list of one of my son's friends - 3970/4000 SAT, Val, good ecs, very good essays, varsity athlete, teachers love her. No really startling accomplishments, however. Rejected at Harvard and Stanford, is attending MIT this fall. In a different year, the results might been different.</p>

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<p>I guess for the benefit for everyone, I'll go through the admissions process as detailed by my admissions officer. </p>

<p>First, you submit your application. Then, an officer, who is specifically in charge of your high school, reads the application. This is the first "portal," so to speak, and students they know will stand no chance at committee are eliminated. Approximately 5,000 to 6,000 students out of the 23,000 applicants do not get across this first "portal." It is pretty obvious who is eliminated at this point - students who have sub par (below 600) test scores, not taking advantage of their high school curriculum, no extracurricular activities, etc.</p>

<p>The remaining 17,000 will get ratings. Harvard uses 1-6 with 1 being the highest and 6 being the lowest in academics, extracurricular activities, personal qualities and athletics. Obviously, the athletics rating only comes into play if the student actually wants to be recruited or has spent a lot of time on varsity athletics. For most students, athletics isn't really a concern. A "1" or "2" rating in academics or extracurriculars mean extremely high achievement in those respective fields. </p>

<p>In most cases, the regional officer passes the case onto a second admissions officer in the same regional subcommittee. It can even go onto a third reader! At this point, they are comparing students to the overall strength of the applicant pool. Approximately 5,000 to 7,000 students get past the second "portal."</p>

<p>Now, the final, or third, "portal" is much different than many other colleges. Each case is debated by all 35 admissions officers. (NB: This is why I personally believe that there is no luck in being accepted at Harvard.) </p>

<p>The regional officer will debate on the student's behalf, and the other admissions officers sitting there all want students from their region to be accepted. It does get down to the nitty-gritty, mostly on their personal characteristics rather than academics, as if your academics were sub-par, then you probably would not have made it through the second "portal." 12 out of the 35 admissions officers have to say "yes" to your application.</p>

<p>Are these accepted applicants safe yet? Not really. It always happens that the number accepted is always greater than the approxmiately 2,100 students that they shoot for every year. Therefore, all accepted applicants are reviewed YET AGAIN in order to deny or waitlist the student. Most students will be waitlisted at this point.</p>

<p>With an 80% yield rate, Harvard rarely goes to the waitlist. This past year, for the Class of 2010, there were about 10 students taken off the waitlist.</p>

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<p>xjayz -
thanks for the information - I do disagree about the luck part, however, because of this bit:</p>

<p>"Now, the final, or third, "portal" is much different than many other colleges. Each case is debated by all 35 admissions officers. "</p>

<p>Committee behavior among adults is influenced by many things positive and negative - headaches, insomnia, annoyance at one's coworkers, time of day, energy level, pecking order among the members, etc. If one's application really speaks to ones reader's at portal 2 - and they are energetic, articulate and having a good day (not having a migraine!) at portal 3 - the applicant will be well presented and is going to have a fair shot in the debate. This is the ideal, and I am sure that if the Harvard admissions people are anything like the ones I have met at other institutions - they strive for this ideal.</p>

<p>In reality, adults, no matter how good their intentions, aren't always operating at 100%. Does it affect the outcome for a particular student? I believe that in some cases it does. Does it affect the class as a whole? Perhaps - as I would guess that it hard to get a third of your committee to agree on a potentially controversial candidate or one from an unknown school - even on your best day.</p>

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<p>Ohio_mom,</p>

<p>Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Both my kids are absolutely perfect........ in my eyes. Some days they are significantly less perfect than others. Some days my standard for perfection is lower than others. :)</p>

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<p>has your daughter viited harvard, knows what she wants to do, basically did more than enough research to know that she is a match and wants to go there over princeton, yale, stanford, etc. if that is true, tell the GC that and show the GC too. there are many people who apply to ivys because of name. your GC knows it is a private schools and the parents (regardless of being asian) want their kids to go to a place like harvard. when ever someone applies to a good school the GC may want to make sure that the student really wants to go and isnt applying for the name. because it is a private school, her going to harvard would boost the repuation and stuff like that. if, however, harvard hates your daughter's school and wont accept people from it (like if someone went back on ED a few years ago) then your GC should tell you that it is more of an uphill battle than for most and should show you other schools instead of saying not to apply. and 9 college's essays done in august would be every parent's dream, and makes your child a robot. but then again "near perfect" would be essays done in august. perfect is done in july.</p>

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<p>No one has addressed the underlying concern of the OP, which is that it is possible that the GC's attitude will somehow scuttle the application. </p>

<p>While it would seem absurd for a GC to do anything other than his best for and applicant, I am directly aware of one incident where a teacher (who actually solicited the opportunity to write the Harvard recommendation for the applicant) wound up writing a tepid, damned by faint praise type of letter. This was discovered by the ultimatley successful applicant the next fall when he asked to see his admissions file, thinking that any notes or insights might be useful in helping a younger sister applying a year later.</p>

<p>The applicant had been deferred early. After calling to inquire as to whether he could add something to strenghthen his application, the Harvard rep had commented that additional recommendations might be a positive. [If I had not heard this story from reliable lips, I would dismiss it as meaningless. In 20/20 hindsight, it is obvious that the admissions rep liked the applicant, and was sending a "hint" or "coded message" that something was not perfect with the recommendations]. At the time, the applicant and family had no idea that the recommendation from the teacher who had volunteered was anything but terrific. The discovery the following fall sent the father through the roof and precipitated a meeting with the principal.</p>

<p>So, I would suggest that the applicant consider attaching a note that will somehow vaccinate her against the GC's potential poor judgement. This would be very tricky to do correctly, but I think if worded briefly and directly, it could be done in a way that would not make you seem like a "nut case", and yet put the reader on alert that the GC seems unsupportive of the Harvard application. </p>

<p>Something like a note that "For reasons that I am not able to ascertain, my counselor seems to have doubts about the appropriateness of my applying to Harvard. If additional recommendations or information would be helpful, I would be happy to supply it promptly.] PS: I'm sure some CC posters will disagree with this, or that they can come up with a better way to raise it. Certainly it is not without risk. I think you need to let your instincts inform you here and make your own decision. </p>

<p>Also, I don't mean to introduce hyperparanoia here among HYP applicants, but I discussed this story once before, and I do think it was eye opening on several counts.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm sure some CC posters will disagree with this

[/quote]

And I do -- I see the point, but I can't imagine any way of writing it that doesn't come across as defensive. Not nut job, just defensive. What if the GC ends up writing a flat-out fantastic letter. Then the admissions rep is left scratching his or her head wondering if there is something else floating around in the background. I'd suggest making sure that the teacher recs are outstanding.</p>

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<p>one thing you must keep in mind especially on the common app (which Harvard uses) the GC and teachers do not write recommendations, they write evaluations and the 2 do not necessarily have to be one in the same.</p>

<p><a href="http://app.commonapp.org/index.cfm?APP=AppOnline&ACT=Display&DSP=Forms%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://app.commonapp.org/index.cfm?APP=AppOnline&ACT=Display&DSP=Forms&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I remember a while back we had a discussion thread about a student wanting to sue over their recommendation because he believed it kept him out of a college</p>

<p>When the GC's rec says more than it needs to </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=117275&highlight=evaluation%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=117275&highlight=evaluation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Dadx's post was interesting and helpful to me, as well. I've posted repeatedly about daughter's Geezer Counselor, and I think Dadx's advice is sound. The GC is an 80 year old priest who is (to put it mildly) set in his ways. Daughter is considering a career in the ministry (we aren't Catholic despite her attendance in a Catholic school) and the GC foams at the mouth over that possibility. He was the GC at a prestigious boys' school for decades and is now in a co-ed school and he has real issues in dealing with girls at all. He doesn't think women have any place in the church, so I know his recommendations will be poor and that he will do other things to sabotage my daughter.</p>

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<p>Thank you for quoting that line. It was one of several lines in the original post that raised hoax message warning flags for me.<<</p>

<p>Like Mary Poppins: she is "Practically perfect in every way."</p>

<p>;-)</p>

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<p>Coureur,</p>

<p>Can I borrow the umbrella there is quite a bit of rain in NYC today. Since she is no wicked witch, there is no fear that the rain water will make her melt ;)</p>