<p>My child goes to an east coast school that sends one or two students to the Ivies every year, but no one has ever been accepted by Harvard. My child (I will refer to her as C) is applying to Harvard, and C is qualified to do so with a perfect SAT I score, extremely high GPA, number one class rank and unbelievably great extra-curricular activities. C's essay is done, and a couple of teachers have looked at it, and declared that they have never read a better one. I must also add that at the end of junior year, the school has given C all sorts of awards that only seniors have gotten in the past. In short, C has been the best they have ever had because C is near perfect. Don't ask me how this happened because I know that nurture has its limits.
C has thought long and hard about applying to Harvard, and we know that in spite of the great stats, getting admitted is very much about luck as well. C has told the GC about applying to Harvard, and the reaction has me sighing in dismay.
"Try to look beyond the name."
"Being the biggest fish in a small pond may be very good."
"There are lots of very good schools besides Harvard."
"Have you read Pope's book?"
"Do you know about the new Ivies?"
C dismisses the GC as being really clueless, but I am worried that she may be dissuading C from applying because she knows that C does not stand a chance. On the other hand, can it be that she does not want to get blamed if C is eventually rejected?
It is rather infuriating that the GC assumes that since we are Asians, C is being pressured to apply to Harvard. Is it so hard to believe that some kids are mature enough to know that they are tired to being the biggest fish in the small pond; that they would like to be surrounded by other intelligent and motivated students; that they do not want to be treated as teenage aberrations because they act like they adults?
What really scares me is that the GC has to write the recommendation letter, and she does not seem to know C at all since if she did, she would never think that C's achievements are to be credited to parental pressure. And overwork is not an excuse. The school is private with four GCs for 200 students.
And I am angry too because if C by some kind of miracle gets into Harvard, the school will definitely use it to promote itself. The hypocrisy is sickening.
Sorry, but I just needed to vent.</p>
<p>As a sophomore at Harvard myself, you never know what may happen. If your daughter is sure that Harvard is one of her top choices, she should apply regardless of what the school says. My school never expected me to get into a place like Harvard (granted, I was not as stellar academically like your daughter), yet I believed in myself and applied - look where I am now! </p>
<p>The only sure fire way that she knows that she won't be accepted is by not applying. The only sure fire way that she knows that she might get in is by applying. Good luck!</p>
<p>Your daughter should definitely apply if this is what she wants. My daughter applied SCEA and never expected to be accepted. She was admitted in December and is busy packing now. </p>
<p>On the flip side, your daughter should also have several other schools that she loves, including realistic safety schools. My daughter had most of her apps finished before she even heard back from Harvard.</p>
<p>I would bet that the GC is really just trying to make sure your child knows not to have their heart set on Harvard. Its a let-down getting rejected from any school.</p>
<p>My guess is that because no student from their school has ever been accepted in the past, the GC is not optimistic about Harvard. Since it is a small school, many of your d's accomplishments don't mean that much outside of the school -- for example, awards that the school gives out to its own students. Even being the #1 student in a class of 50 is not nearly as impressive as some kid from a larger high school who is #1 in 500. So what the GC knows is that their school does not have a good track record with Harvard. She is wise to encourage your daughter to seriously consider other colleges. </p>
<p>This doesn't mean that your daughter shouldn't apply -- of course she should apply if that is where she wants to go. I am sure the GC will give her a good rec, too -- it is in the school's interest to have kids get into the Ivies. </p>
<p>I do want to say one thing -- some people don't agree with me, but here it is: I don't think that it is just a matter of "luck" to get into Harvard. I think that many who get in are more savvy about the application process and are able to present themselves in a better light, or know how to play up their strengths in an effective way; and I think that some who do not get in are rejected or waitlisted because they failed to put together an attention-getting application, even though they may have excellent grades and test scores. I'm not saying that there isn't an element of luck -- there is -- but there is also an element of strategy, just like there is with most games of chance. </p>
<p>I think your daughter needs to think about what things make her special. For example, she might ask herself these questions: if she was going to assign 3 adjectives to describe herself, what would they be? what special talent or ability will she bring to Harvard that other students might not bring? if the admissions committee could remember only one thing about her, what would she want them to remember? Your daughter needs to think about what qualities she wants to emphasize, and then make sure that her application does a good job of conveying that. </p>
<p>If your daughter wants Harvard, then she really does have to make herself stand out in some way. The question isn't why the gc doesn't like Harvard... it is why Harvard doesn't seem to like your d's school. So in a sense, even though the school may provide an excellent education, your d. needs to do something to rise above her school in the application process.</p>
<p>A few thoughts:</p>
<p>1) My high school has a similar thing, where no one gets into MIT. Every year, we send to Harvard, Tufts, Berkeley, Cornell, Swarthmore, Williams, Wellesley - but no MIT. Every few years, depending on who applies, we get Brown, Georgetown, Colubmia. No student has gotten in since I was in elementary school. Heaven only knows why (maybe b/c no one ever gets a straight-A average?), but it's reality. </p>
<p>It is important to acknowledge that Harvard may just not know enough about students from your D's high school to want to accept them. It could have had a bad experience with the student it did take years ago or just doesn't have a relationship with the school.</p>
<p>Keep that in mind as you formulate a school list and structure your application package for Harvard. </p>
<p>Some parents have written things about having bad information on the school information sheets (such as "maximum GPAs" that cannot be obtained, since students have required classes that don't have honours weighting, or decile rankings only, so the val and the person who is barely in the top 10% are indistinguishable). Ask to see these sheets and look them over! Ensure that they are accurate. Do this long, long before the first round of apps are due, because there won't be time to change them once app season is in full swing.</p>
<p>2) Your GC is doing a lot of good things - kids should be encouraged to look beyond the "name" of Harvard. Now, I know a lot of people who went there and LOVED it. They tend to be two types of people: either hyper-intelligent, brilliant people who are finally among those who challenge them, or the dynamo types who are all on Wall Street, because they have the "stuff" to succeed. </p>
<p>If your D can see herself at Harvard - as in toured the school and "clicks" with it, then she should explain that to her GC. I think that a "Why Harvard" essay (or mini-essay for a cover letter) should be done anyway, and the GC should have a copy for her recommendation. That will enable the GC to see that your D really loves this place. </p>
<p>3) Some of this could be patronizing for no good reason - people tend to underestimate quiet types.</p>
<p>Nomadmom, my D applied to Harvard, was deferred, then rejected, and while she had numbers in range, wasn't perfect. However, the entire time - from early fall when she put together her EA application, everyone - and I mean everyone - commented negatively on her choice. The comments were along the lines of "it's horrible being in undergrad there - save H for grad school" and "you don't want to go there" and " the students compete with each other to the point of making it miserable" (followed by terrible stories about what students would do to each other to get a better grade, etc.). One person actually said "Harvard? I wouldn't wish that on anyone."</p>
<p>Many of these comments came from adults outside of school - mentors in her sport, and also many of them either went to and Ivy or some other school in the same range, at least for grad or professional school, AND had children who attended Ivys and other highly ranked schools. One of them is currently running for a senate seat, another is a lawyer, another a doctor (who is married to a doctor, and whose daughter is a doctor), etc. Last, another person, well positioned in the community and very successful, pulled me aside and said "please don't let her attend Harvard - it's a mistake". He said this to me as if I'd signed off on permission to ship her to Iraq. When I inquired as to why, he would only make vague references to the cut-throat academic environment, etc. </p>
<p>Her GC had never had anyone apply to an Ivy before, and didn't express any particular opinion one way or the other, but also didn't seem to have a strong sense of the possibility of admission. </p>
<p>We never considered the comments very seriously - D, if anything, was more intrigued. She said to me once "but mom, I love competitive, cut-throat environments - that just excites me more - that's the kind of school I want". </p>
<p>We are not Asian btw, and I have absolutely no explanation for the wide range of negative comments from so many persons who did not know each other and who had no particular personal agenda. My daughter didn't care what anyone else said, so, I decided that I didn't care either. </p>
<p>I share this with you only to say that perhaps the comments you're hearing at school have nothing at all to do with true evaluations of Harvard or even one's chances of getting in, but rather something based in that individual's own experience with college, even if it was 25 years ago - or perhaps something their own children experienced that didn't quite go their way. </p>
<p>My recommendation would be to simply ignore; if your daughter has evaluated her options and believes that Harvard is a good fit, she go for it, put together the very best application possible, and ignore everyone else. You're going to hear a LOT of odd comments over the next few months, and, it seems (specific to the "segue" time between end of high school and beginning of college) the more successful our children are, and the more they achieve, the odder the comments get. Don't listen to the oddness, just stay focused on the end game, and move on. I'm of the opinion that these things have little to do with the student in question, and everything to do with whatever personal "google" the speaker brought to the situation.</p>
<p>Chances are your daughter will be packing for Harvard and the naysayers will still be standing around muttering about the unfortunate choice lol. :)</p>
<p>Perhaps the GC simply wants to make sure that your child has other good choices on his/her list, including some schools where the chances of admission are more favorable than they are at Harvard.</p>
<p>Good luck to your D, Nomadmom. Let me add a couple of additional suggestion. </p>
<p>First, listen to the GC and let her know that you value her opinion. She probably doesn't (I am guessing) have a working relationship with H, but likely does with other great schools, and will have a good sense of where the possibiliy of admisission is high. You need the GC in your corner.</p>
<p>A student's first application is often not his or her best. If your D applies to a couple of likelies and a match or two - then Harvard - it may well be her strongest application.<br>
Remember that Harvard is building a class - and we on the outside don't know what the strength of the various components is for a particular year. So it does look random on the outside. Also, Harvard has a very large admissions committee - and applicants, from what I have read, are debated. A sense of her as a person will need to jump off the paper - if it does, she may have a shot if a reader is willing to go to bat for her.</p>
<p>Vent away Nomad - that's a big part of what we are here for and what we do - vents and rants are OK.</p>
<p>A couple of thoughts
1) If your daughter wants to go to Harvard she should apply. She should write the best application that she can, go SCEA if that's what she truly wants.</p>
<p>2) You and your D should take the GC's advice seriously as well. Small Eastern (?NE) private school that sends a few kids to Ivies each year? The GC well knows the school's record with Harvard, and there could be some stumbling block there that is real. Also, the simple competition in the NE and MidAtlantic areas is fierce, even for kids with perfect credentials. Wouldn't stop my D from applying to Harvard, but keep your options open.</p>
<p>3) Finally, the GC may be asking in a delicate fashion if you can afford Harvard. Mentioning the CTCL schools to me suggests one of 2 things, either the GC is trying to be certain your daughter is exposed to other types of educational options - at my D's high school every year, for example, there are 3-4 kids who apply to Ivies "just for the heck of it", and they ALL, ALWAYS apply to, you guessed it, Harvard. Not that I am at all implying your D is not qualified for H or hasn't thought about other colleges, but that "Ivy equals Harvard equals best school for me" thinking is very prevalent. OR, the GC may be trying to point out schools where you D might very well get big merit scholarships, even full rides.</p>
<p>WHen my H and I met with D's college counselor, alone, the first meeting is kids only, then parents only, and we told her that our D was considering some expensive, NE private schools, she very delicately and skillfully asked us if we could afford it. The look of relief when we told her we understood what we were in for was palpable. The vals of high school for the 2 years previous to D's year, had both been accepted to Harvard, and both had to turn it down for financial reasons. One kid, I was told, had no idea this financial hitch was coming and was devastated. Our GC and maybe yours as well, tries to get the best match for her students that she can - finance wise, size wise, location, everything - her job is to be a resource and a help to the kids and their families.</p>
<p>Best of luck to your daughter, and don't forget to come here to vent!</p>
<p>I agree with the other posters. If your daughter doesn't apply she'll never know. ( I met a nice girl on a flight not too long ago who's unhappy at her LAC and said she wished she'd filled out the application for Princeton, but her parents dissuaded her. She was filled with regret. I thought it was sad.) GC's don't know everything. (mine also tried to dissuade me from my first choice. I got in.) Be realistic in applying to other places as well. Good luck!</p>
<p>Flame away:</p>
<p>I am not here to hurt your feelings or diminish your kid in any way but I do not think that the GC dislikes your kid. However, I do think that your GC would be remiss and at some level would be irresponsible to jump up and down over the prospect of your D applying to a school where over 90% of the applicants are not accepted. </p>
<p>She is probably just erring on the side of caution and if your child wants to apply to Harvard, then by all means she should toss her hat in the ring with the attitude of hoping for the best but remaining cognizant of the fact that the odds will be against her no matter how stellar her scores and grades are.</p>
<p>
[quote]
C is qualified to do so with a perfect SAT I score, extremely high GPA, number one class rank and unbelievably great extra-curricular activities. C's essay is done, and a couple of teachers have looked at it, and declared that they have never read a better one. </p>
<p>I must also add that at the end of junior year, the school has given C all sorts of awards that only seniors have gotten in the past. In short, C has been the best they have ever had because C is near perfect. Don't ask me how this happened because I know that nurture has its limits.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Just looking at this statement Keep in mind that Harvard is not at a loss of students applying who have perfect SAT scores, extremely high GPA, number one class rank and unbelievably great extra-curricular activities (this could be subjective because at what you and your school may see as unbelievaly great Harvard could consider to be nothing special). </p>
<p>
[quote]
C has told the GC about applying to Harvard, and the reaction has me sighing in dismay.</p>
<p>"Try to look beyond the name."
"Being the biggest fish in a small pond may be very good."
"There are lots of very good schools besides Harvard."
"Have you read Pope's book?"
"Do you know about the new Ivies?"</p>
<p>C dismisses the GC as being really clueless, but I am worried that she may be dissuading C from applying because she knows that C does not stand a chance.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your D has really gotten some good sound advice, which both you and your daughter should really take and take a bottoms up approach to admissions. </p>
<p>I don't think that your GC is clueless as much as parents and students could be clueless by having such a myopic view of what they think the admissions process should be ( I don't think your GC has anything against you because you are asian, but I do think that your GC may have an uphill battle because some asian students and their parents find it hard to grasp the concept that admissions is more than having the best scores and grades, because it presents a cultural disconnect).</p>
<p>I also think that one of the biggest problems I have seen on CC is that people believe that simply having good grades and scores are enough. The fact is that students will perfect grades and scores get rejected and people with less than stellar scores (who may have other things going for them get accepted. It is not soley about grades or scores because there is a great liklihood that any student admitted will be able to do the work and graduate whether they have a 1200 or a 1600 (old scale).</p>
<p>I am going to repeat one of the postings I wrote a few days ago:</p>
<p>Here are a few links what I hope are a few really useful thread (many are listed as featured discussions) so that anyone new to the game could have a jumping off point because one thing I have seen over the past few admissions cycles is that the only thing that is certain in college admissions is the amount of uncertainty in the admissions process.</p>
<p>**No Acceptances: One Kid's Story - A year later... **</p>
<p>A year ago, Andi was picking up the pieces after her National Merit scholar son had received no acceptances from the 8 places where he applied. Now, Andi updates us on her son and the good news about how things worked out after he took a gap year. </p>
<p>**My Dinner With An Admissions Officer **</p>
<p>He believes way too many people are overly preoccupied with GPA's and standardized test scores. He believes these are almost always bright line tests, rarely anything more. Exceed the threshhold and the REAL review begins.</p>
<p>Most colleges today are concerned about putting together a well-rounded community and are not necessarily looking for well-rounded individual students. The elite colleges truly want "superstars" in many of the niche fields and EC's. Having said this, students who are well-rounded at a VERY HIGH LEVEL never go out of vogue</p>
<p>**Just How Hard Admission Can Be **</p>
<p>Admissions stats provide a reality check - even very high-scoring students have a low probability of admission at some schools. </p>
<p>**"Whoever has the most APs wins" **</p>
<p>Post # 49 by Ben Jones, College Rep for MIT is definitely worth a read:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.</p>
<p>I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And now for my mea culpa,</p>
<p>I am reading the Overachievers by Alexandra Robbins. Although the first paragraph starts out a little over the top, woven in between the student stories is some good sound facts and advice (which is definitely why the book is worth a read for parents and kids going through the admissions cycle).</p>
<p>From p. 202</p>
<p>
[quote]
</p>
<p>*** Harvard's dean of admission and financial aid, Bill Fitzsommons told me that applicants have to do some unusal things to distinguish themselves is a "misconception". "in brad terms, there are 3 ways to get into Harvard," he said. Each year out of 23,000 applicants and 2,100 admits, about 200 to 300 students get in because "they are among the most exciting potential scholars of the coming generation." The second category consists of "people who do something extraordinarily well.' 200 to 300 excelling in dance, drama, or athletics, whose achievements "are almost surrogates for energy, drive and commitment." The third way to get into Harvard is the most common: students who have "plain old accomplishments on a day-to day basis. it is not about gimmicks, but about substance."</p>
<p>Harvard tells students there are hundreds of excellent colleges choices, and while Harvard may be one of them, other schools might be a better match.***
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If your D is keen on Harvard, she should apply to Harvard. She should, of course, also consider other schools that are somewhat less difficult to get into but are just as good.</p>
<p>It's true that the first essay that gets written is not usually the best. That certainly was the case with my S. I'd advise to do what he did: write several essays, then choose the best. Or, if the essay prompts are different, write as many of them anyway. The act of writing will help improve it. By mid-October, your D will have a couple of essays that she will be happy with that she can send for the Harvard SCEA. Then she can relax until she hears the outcome of her SCEA application; if she gets in, she can stop there if she wishes. If she is deferred, she can send in the rest of her applications.</p>
<p>She also needs to think about who she is, what she loves studying and doing and what she might contribute to a college community, and how best to communicate all that in her essays and list of activities and achievements. She does not have to be an academic superstar or single-handedly eliminated poverty in her community, or something equally stupendous. An essay showing that an applicant has a great sense of humor will produce a very favorable impression on readers and will convince them that the applicant would be great to have around for the next four years.</p>
<p>Do have a talk with the GC. Convince the GC that while her advice is very much taken to heart, your D wants to have a shot at Harvard (I won't get in if I don't apply) but that your D will also apply to other schools and would like the GC's recommendations. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>EDIT: cross-posted with Sybbie. Nothing I have written undermines the advice Sybbie provides. Your D won't get into Harvard if she does not apply, but she also need to keep in mind all the cautionary tales we've read about on CC and elsewhere.</p>
<p>Let me add two things, which would be on my mind as a GC:</p>
<p>(1) If your daughter is thinking of applying SCEA to Harvard, she may want to consider that her SCEA application at Harvard may only give her a 10-15% chance of being accepted (which is still a little better than she would have in the regular pool). However, at many other schools (including Princeton and Dartmouth, for example, and many great LACs), an EA or ED application much more significantly boosts the chance of a strong student being accepted. Does she like H so much better than those other schools (NOT Yale, though), that she's willing to forgo a much more significant boost in her chance to get into an equivalent school?</p>
<p>On the other hand, if what we're talking about is planning to submit a RD application there, he shouldn't be discouraging it.</p>
<p>(2) Really, if you could go anywhere you wanted, there are still a bunch of reasons why Harvard shouldn't necessarily be the place you want to go. (And, of course, a bunch of reasons why it might be.) The HARVARD! brand is so strong, though, lots of kids may not realize that choosing Harvard isn't a no-brainer unless you have no other good options. I would want to make certain students looked past the superficial attractions of incomparable history, wealth, cachet, beauty, location, faculty, traditions, etc. to realize that the parking sucks, a lot of the students are jerks, you are more likely to see some of the faculty on TV than in an undergraduate classroom or their office hours, you don't want to go through life dealing with others' envious hostility, and Yale is actually better. [smiley]</p>
<p>"In short, C has been the best they have ever had because C is near perfect. "</p>
<p>Wow. I didn't think that was possible. I hope C is also just a kid for C's sake. :)</p>
<p>I'll weigh in. C should definitely apply if Harvard is what she wants and where she thinks she will fit best. You will hear that word 'fit' alot in the college admissions arena and it is what is most important. That being said, I concur with all of the above posts, getting into Harvard isn't about perfection. A lot of time it is about connections, packaging and other things distasteful. But most of the time it is about Harvard finding a kid who brings a unique perspective or talent to their school. </p>
<p>Re: your gc's statement about 'new ivies' and your statement that your daughter is mature enough to know that she is tired to being the biggest fish in the small pond and that she would like to be surrounded by other intelligent and motivated students. My d attends one of those 'new ivies' (the school administrators refreshingly poked fun at that new accolade at orientation btw). I guarantee you there are MANY high caliber schools where your child will not be the big fish and where she will be delighted to find herself surrounded by intelligent and motivated students. Clearly your GC thinks your d is so unique and special that there is more than one school which would benefit from her and she from them.</p>
<p>1sokkermom, near perfect...yes, it is possible...and I cannot claim all the credit...good things just came together...and don't worry...C is a happy kid :)</p>
<p>JHS, many thanks for pointing out the SCEA vs ED chances. C is going for SCEA to be able to compare financial packages.</p>
<p>marite, C plans to apply for 9 colleges, and has completed all the essays...sending the one she likes best to Harvard.</p>
<p>dke, C has both feet planted on the ground...college list included non-Ivies, small LACS...but GC zeroed in on the Harvard SCEA without making any suggestions.</p>
<p>cangel, thanks for understanding the need to vent...did ask GC about merit scholarships, and didn't really get any suggestions...thought I'd be better off looking around CC.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Why does the GC dislike Harvard?<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I don't think she does. I think it is more likely that Harvard dislikes (or at least fails to notice) your high school. </p>
<p>For our high school it's Yale. The school regularly sends kids to Stanford, Berkeley, and Pomona and occasionally some to Harvard, MIT, and Princeton. But Yale? Nada. Exactly zero kids admitted in the living memory of the school despite some very strong students having come and gone.</p>
<p>I thought my D just might be the one to break this string and get the school on Yale's radar, since she had very strong stats. I wouldn't go so far as to say "near perfect," but nevertheless a very strong candidate. But no - same old result with Yale.</p>
<p>So maybe your GC knows from sad experience that your high school has the same thing going with Harvard - just can't get their attention and get your top kids in. So go ahead and apply to Harvard, but listen to your GC as well. I think you are hearing the voice of experience.</p>
<p>I wanted my kid to apply to a less selective college and be done with college stress. However, every kid has their own personality and mind. So let the kid choose whatever they want. Who knows what future brings? By applying early your kid has nothing to loose. They have to learn how to take risks and live with their decisions. Let them follow their heart and decisions. It is emotionally draining and hard, but I am trying to follow this too. let them live whatever they choose to follow.</p>
<p>Nomadmom:</p>
<p>You sound quite aware of financial considerations, so I'm sure you know that Ivies do not give merit aid. If your D were to be admitted to Harvard, would you be able to afford her going? Would she qualify for financial aid?</p>