Why Does USNWR Rank Grinnell Higher Than Oberlin?

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 12:06am

Doesn't make sense to me. Here's what I mean:

Oberlin:

SAT CR scores over 500 = 99%
SAT math scores over 500 = 99%

Grinnell:

SAT CR scores over 500 = 95%
SAT math scores over 500 = 97%

Oberlin:

SAT CR scores over 600 = 89%
SAT math scores over 600 = 84%

Grinnell:

SAT CR scores over 600 = 80%
SAT math scores over 600 = 84%

Oberlin:

SAT CR scores over 700 = 54%
SAT math scores over 700 = 34%

Grinnell:

SAT CR scores over 700 = 43%
SAT math scores over 700 = 32%

Oberlin:

7,006 applied; 2,288 admitted = 32.6%

Grinnell:

3,217 applied; 1,383 admitted = 42.9%

This despite more than 600 conservatory students who have slightly lower test scores than the students in the College of Arts and Sciences, lowering Oberlin's average test scores. According to these numbers Oberlin is more selective than Grinnell, despite being larger and having to admit more students each year.

I don't think there is any doubt. The USNWR rankings are nonsense. Imagine if Oberlin admitted the same number of students as Grinnell. Oberlin gets more than twice as many applicants.

Drought · May 14, 2010, 1:03am

Cause Grinnell is both a better and easier to get into than Oberlin.

kolijma · May 14, 2010, 3:06am

The USNWR rankings have hundreds of detractors on CC, I think justifiably. Their methodology includes giving 25% of the ranking score to peer assessment, which is very subjective and is under more and more scrutiny. On the other hand, rankings shouldn’t be too influenced by how many students apply to a school either, since many schools go through surges and dips in popularity through the decades without losing or gaining any intrinsic quality. Don’t sweat any of the rankings. For grad schools and employers they really don’t matter!

pohaku · May 14, 2010, 4:25am

For last year’s class, the acceptance rate was apparently 28%. Significantly less than the year before. Grinnell also has a huge endowment for a school of its size - $1.076 Billion in 2009. That’s about 4 times the size of Oberlin’s. Like Oberlin, they give merit aid and that has made them more attractive - despite their location. They have top notch facilities as well and fund all kinds of programming and student activities.

The USNWR rankings are undeniably questionable, but Grinnell does bring a lot to the party and has become both more attractive and competitive.

That said, my daughter, who was accepted to both Grinnell and Oberlin, will be attending Oberlin next year.

From the Grinnell website:

A Preliminary Look at the Class of 2013

Major media sources have followed the college admission process this year; some with dire predictions about application numbers in tough economic times. But Grinnell mentions in The Wall St. Journal, The New York Times, and TIME.com, plus the application numbers themselves illustrate a more favorable picture.

Last year, Grinnell enrolled a record incoming class of 464 students. This year, applications for the Grinnell Class of 2013 were down only slightly at 3,807 compared to 3,888 in 2008. “We planned for this year’s class to be substantially smaller than last year’s record class in order to meet institutional capacity for classroom size and housing,” said Dean of Admission and Financial Aid Seth Allen. “Our target this year is 385 incoming first-year students.”

And with the universal May 1 “applicant reply” deadline just past, the numbers and makeup of the 2009 incoming class are shaping up well. As of May 5, enrollment for the Class of 2013 indicates:

<pre><code>* 67% of new students reporting rank in the top 10% of their high school class.

The first-year class has the same male/female ratio as last year’s class at 47%/53%.
Domestic students of color make up more than one-quarter of the entering first-year class.
International students make up 14% of the incoming first-year class.
Incoming students enrolled from 43 states.
</code></pre>

Allen also points out that while the target for this year’s entering class is intentionally smaller, the selectivity is significantly higher-a 28 percent acceptance rate this year versus 36 percent last year-creating a delicate balance for the Grinnell admission staff.

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 8:29am

Pohaku,

I’m not buying that 28% and endowment size as justification. That has nothing to do with the quality of the applicant pool. The students who are admitted do not have superior stats over Oberlin admittees. That’s a fact.

Your endowment information is flawed. This is what was reported by USNWR for Oberlin a year ago: $828,714,935 I’m terrible at math, but how does that equate to being one-fourth the size of Grinnell’s 1.076 billion? I don’t see much difference there. I’m also willing to bet Oberlin’s library is superior in size (volumes) and quality.

monydad · May 14, 2010, 1:32pm

US News has a formula, it’s not their subjective opinion.

They crunch the numbers, according to all their little factors, weight them all in the way they have decided to weight them, formulaically, and that’s what pops out.

If you want to know why, go buy the magazine, look at all their little categories and see what all the little grades are. There’s a lot more they consider than incoming student stats. Which doesn’t mean their categories or weightings are objectively “right” by everyone else’s reckoning, or comprehensive, or even highly relevant. Sells a lot of magazines though.

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 2:34pm

^
And I bet Fortune has completely different rankings.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to put down Grinnell. My D would’ve applied and probably would’ve been accepted, were we still living in Minnesota instead of Pennsylvania. She didn’t want to go to school further than a days drive from home, but preferred to return to the midwest for college. I could make the same comparison with any of the LACs “ranked” by USNWR ahead of Oberlin. Some would have better student achievement stats than Oberlin and maybe better everything, but there are others - like Grinnell - where it’s at least very questionable.

Aside from Fortune Magazine rankings (I haven’t actually seen them, so I don’t where Grinnell and Oberlin fall comparatively) there is this, although its 2-3 years old maybe. Don’t be fooled by the url title. It includes private schools:

Here’s what they say about their rankings:

Pure Statistics

StateUniversity.com’s ranking system is based purely on statistical data from a third party source, namely, government agencies that maintain the responsibility to carefully collect data from colleges and universities through regular, comprehensive surveying. These institutions must comply with utmost accuracy and objectivity.

Unlike peer review, statistical data leads to factually based conclusions.

Important Factors Affecting Rank and Easy to Understand Listings

StateUniversity.com uses several qualifiers in deciding the rank position of an institution. Factors such as ACT/SAT scores, the school’s student retention, the salary of faculty and student /faculty ratio play a very significant role in determining the outcome. Each factor is given a percentage weight and is calculated.

For more information on how these calculations work, visit our blog: US College Rankings: How US News Report and Other College Rankings Work

Making sure the rankings are readable and easy for the reader to understand is another reason why this system is beneficial. A school’s score can be between 0 and 100, with the best possible score being 100.

Oberlin is ranked 34th in the country, Grinnell 36th. All colleges and universities ranked together:

[Top</a> 2000 Ranked Universities for Highest Overall School Score](<a href=“http://www.stateuniversity.com/rank/score_rank.html]Top”>http://www.stateuniversity.com/rank/score_rank.html)

Seems to me a ranking without peer review is a more honest one.

monydad · May 14, 2010, 5:30pm

An “honest” ranking, from your own perspective, is the one you do yourself, choosing factors and weighting them as you personally see fit. People will disagree on what those factors should be, and what weights to ascribe to each. US News has their approach, you may have your approach, etc. There is no universal truth going on here, only subjective quantification of various metrics about which there is no universal agreement.

To each their own.

For my kids these metrics played only a very minor role in the process of college selection anyway.

pohaku · May 14, 2010, 5:31pm

The endowment numbers may have shifted somewhat to the present date (and I hope Oberlin’s is up since my daughter will be attending this fall), but in the 2006 Williams study of endowment per student (admittedly 2005 data), Grinnell endowment per student was $900,000 and Oberlin’s was $224,000. About one quarter.

<a href=“Pixeum:The Digital Gallery”>Pixeum:The Digital Gallery;

[Endowment</a> per Student- Oberlin College](<a href=“Pixeum:The Digital Gallery”>Pixeum:The Digital Gallery)

[Endowment</a> per Student- Grinnell College](<a href=“Pixeum:The Digital Gallery”>Pixeum:The Digital Gallery)

You asked why the USNWR rankings are what they are. I expect they take selectivity and endowment into account as well as incoming student stats. At what level, I don’t know. I haven’t made it a point to examine their formula closely. I’m sure all kinds of other factors are rolled in - some objective and some subjective. FWIW, I personally don’t put much stock in the USNWR rankings. I think many of these schools like Oberlin and Grinnell offer a comparable education and are competing in the same applicant pool. I agree that there is little difference statistically in Oberlin’s and Grinnell’s student applicants.

The mere fact that different entities (Fortune, etc.) generate different rankings, in some cases substantially different, for the same schools underscores what an inexact “science” college rankings are. My daughter turned down several schools that were ranked higher than Oberlin by USNWR and we are certainly not losing any sleep over it. USNWR has their own formula and set of criteria, which for better or worse, generates a ranking. Whether that ranking is truly meaningful to a student seeking a college is certainly an open question.

monydad · May 14, 2010, 5:44pm

if you care to wade through them (I don’t) here are some possibly germane cc threads & link:

<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2009/08/19/how-we-calculate-the-college-rankings.html?PageNr=2[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-colleges/2009/08/19/how-we-calculate-the-college-rankings.html?PageNr=2</a>

d_smom · May 14, 2010, 5:48pm

I thought this was interesting.

[Swarthmore</a> College :: Institutional Research :: Doctorates Awarded](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x15575.xml]Swarthmore”>Doctorates Awarded :: Institutional Effectiveness, Research & Assessment :: Swarthmore College)

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 6:03pm

^
Thanks D’smom, but it can’t be percentage of alumni awarded doctorates, because both Grinnell and Oberlin are ranked higher in the percentage of doctorates than Pomona, Amherst and Williams, three LACs that USNWR ranks ahead of both Grinnell and Oberlin.

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 6:08pm

Pohaku, that is really OLD data, number one, and doesn’t reflect current TOTAL endowment, which is what you first quoted. Yes, 1 billion is bigger than 800 milllion, but it certainly isn’t 4 or 5 times bigger.

You asked why the USNWR rankings are what they are. I expect they take selectivity and endowment into account as well as incoming student stats. At what level, I don’t know. I haven’t made it a point to examine their formula closely. I’m sure all kinds of other factors are rolled in - some objective and some subjective. FWIW, I personally don’t put much stock in the USNWR rankings. I think many of these schools like Oberlin and Grinnell offer a comparable education and are competing in the same applicant pool. I agree that there is little difference statistically in Oberlin’s and Grinnell’s student applicants.

The mere fact that different entities (Fortune, etc.) generate different rankings, in some cases substantially different, for the same schools underscores what an inexact “science” college rankings are. My daughter turned down several schools that were ranked higher than Oberlin by USNWR and we are certainly not losing any sleep over it. USNWR has their own formula and set of criteria, which for better or worse, generates a ranking. Whether that ranking is truly meaningful to a student seeking a college is certainly an open question.

I couldn’t agree more, Pohaku. And I wouldn’t call it an “inexact science.” I would call it a “wildly subjective exercise,” because they all use different criteria. :)

monydad · May 14, 2010, 6:11pm

Here are some CC comments on this topic from interesteddad:

"No, endowment size is not directly considered, at least in the USNEWS rankings.

However, endowment indirectly contributes to just about everything. Per student spending is considered in the rankings. Endowment drives spending. Williams and Swarthmore spend $12k - $15k more than Wesleyan and $26k - $28k more than Oberlin, per student per year. Is it any surprise that they are more “desireable”, “prestigious”, or whatever euphemism you want to use in your rankings for “nicer product”?

Schools that have historically large per student endowments spend more on faculty (lower student to faculty ratios), have the nicest facilities, the top faculty attracted with salaries/benefits/sabbaticals, and all the other things that contribute to “peer assessment” and a long line of customers stretching out the door (“selectivity”). "

and

"There was some talk earlier in the thread about all the different “ranking” systems and different formulae that are used. I was merely pointing out that the common (usually unstated) factor in ALL of the ranking/prestige lists is endowment size.

The schools that are near the top of the various lists are at the top because they have the most money and have had the most money for the longest time. There’s no magic fairy dust. Just follow the money. Facilities, faculty, programs, diversity, financial aid, you name it. They all require spending. It takes a lot of the mystique out of it, but much of understanding colleges derives directly from the underlying economics.

Now, whether or not a school spends its money on stuff that benefits a particular student is another (and important) issue, but that’s largely independent of rankings. That’s where “the fit” comes in. "

Plainsman · May 14, 2010, 7:49pm

^

monydad, my problem with what Interestdad said is this: First, he concedes that endowment size is not directly related to USNWR’s rankings, but then attempts to draw his own conclusions by talking about money making a “nicer product.” How do you determine definitively which college has the “nicer” facilities when beauty is in the eyes of the beholder? How do you imply that the larger the endowment the nicer the buildings with a straight face? I challenge anybody to demonstrate that Carleton or Amherst have noticeably better buildings than say Colby or Oberlin. That doesn’t make any sense. I saw no advantage outside or inside Swarthmore’s buildings than Oberlins. In fact, the Swarthmore campus was LESS impressive (nice arboretum, though). I saw no superiority to Swarthmore’s facilities over Dickinsons. In fact, Dickinson had the best housing facilities of all the LACs we visited, and certainly Oberlin had a greater and more interesting variety of housing options, and dining options, than Swarthmore.

Maybe all that extra money at the LACs with the biggest endowments is going to professors, I don’t know, but I challenge anybody to demonstrate the superiority in facilties among the schools I just mentioned. Like I said before, how does Grinnell’s or Swarthmore’s library compare to Oberlin’s? Isn’t the library more important to a student’s education than how many sabbaticals the college can give to professors?

By the way, do we know how much profs are paid at these LACs? I mean is there a significant difference?

d_smom · May 14, 2010, 9:00pm

Plainsman,

I was only bringing up my point to show you that perhaps one of the reasons that Grinnell ranks higher than Oberlin was due to ranking higher in that particular area. There are lots of measurements for rankings(not that I really care all that much). Oberlin and Grinnell are ranked very closely. Grinnell has been ranked higher, but not by much when you consider that there are many LAC’s out there. I guess, I am curious why it matters to you??? I mean really, when you consider there are thousands of schools our there and Grinnell and Oberlin generally have ranked within about five places or so on USNWR, is it really all that different?

johnwesley · May 14, 2010, 9:18pm

Monydad - one has to take what you dads says with a ton of salt (jk), especially when one of you trots out the old “Swarthmore spends more per student” chestnut. Swarthmore may well be an example of one school that, due to the small size of its undergraduate population, actually has more money than it can spend intelligently. The “$12k - $15k” that it supposedly spends more than Wesleyan and other LACs, includes spending on extra deans (until recently, there was a separate “dean for jocks”), the managing and subsidizing of faculty housing in one of the most expensive suburbs in the country, and on things like its “writing associates” program which at roughly 175 paid student positions, employs more remedial writing experts than New York’s City College. It in no way reflects a significant difference in academics. It’s simply a way for Swarthmore to somehow explain to its critics why at roughly a million dollars of endowment per student, they even bother charging tuition.

pohaku · May 14, 2010, 11:16pm

I quoted the billion dollar aggregate figure because for a school the size of Grinnell (@1600 students), that is a very substantial figure. (Although clearly a Billion Dollars doesn’t buy as much these days.) If we compare endowments (insert joke here), the metric that matters is endowment per student and I should have been clearer about that in my initial post. It isn’t entirely clear to me what Oberlin’s current endowment is. I have seen reference to the $800,000,000 figure and I have seen more recent reference to $625,000,000. The latter figure was from a 2010 solicitation for fund managers for the Oberlin endowment fund and may be after the market crash. In any event, if we update the per student endowment figures with what appears to be more current info, we get Oberlin (2700 students) with a per student endowment of $231,000 and Grinnell with $672,000. No longer 4 times as big perhaps, but still substantially different.

If, in fact, USNWR does not directly factor endowment into their rankings(and I’m too lazy to look so I’ll take others’ word on that), then, as was pointed out, how they spend the money may possibly (but not necessarily) affect other aspects of the college that affect ratings.

In any event, for the cohort of schools we are discussing, I still view the process as pulling numbers out of a hat. Sure, each school at this level may have a couple attributes that distinguishes it from others (a conservatory, a new science complex, etc.), but fundamentally they offer pretty equivalent educational opportunities. One or the other may have a snazzier brand image than some others, but our kids will receive an excellent education regardless.

Plainsman · May 15, 2010, 12:17am

one has to take what you dads says with a ton of salt (jk), especially when one of you trots out the old “Swarthmore spends more per student” chestnut. Swarthmore may well be an example of one school that, due to the small size of its undergraduate population, actually has more money than it can spend intelligently. The “$12k - $15k” that it supposedly spends more than Wesleyan and other LACs, includes spending on extra deans (until recently, there was a separate “dean for jocks”), the managing and subsidizing of faculty housing in one of the most expensive suburbs in the country, and on things like its “writing associates” program which at roughly 175 paid student positions, employs more remedial writing experts than New York’s City College. It in no way reflects a significant difference in academics. It’s simply a way for Swarthmore to somehow explain to its critics why at roughly a million dollars of endowment per student, they even bother charging tuition.

Exactly my point, johnwesley. How do we know that whatever they are spending it on actually matters to indivdual students, that it actually makes a real measurable difference. If they’re blowing it on “deans for jocks” and to help faculty live in the area - and Philly’s mainline is three or four times as expensive as say, Oberlin, Ohio - well, how exactly does that help the students?

It sounds great to say College A has a jumbo endowment, or College B has more money to spend per student than its competitors, but to wahat extent are they spending that money on the students vs. other stuff?

I’ve been inside Swarthmore’s dorms. They aren’t spending it on the students. Dickinson has better dorms. They aren’t spending it on the food, that’s for sure. I would ask similar questions about Grinnell. Are the larger endowment LACs giving out free text books? Are Swarthmore professors paid twice as much money (as an Oberlin or Grinnell prof) just so they can afford to live decently in that expensive area? I know. I’m being sarcastic. I apologize. Still, Johnwesley makes a good point.

monydad · May 15, 2010, 12:33am

you guys are right, the strict 'per student" approach ignores things like impact of economies of scale; the bigger school might be able to sport better facilities even if per capita is lower, as long as the absolute number is large. because the per student amount is multiplied by more students. And the resulting “better” facilities will benefit all of them.

Still I agree with i-dad, to a much smaller degree of course, that some impact of wealth probably does trickle in. A school with more wherewithal has more options on how to use it. There could be some impact on particular programs, financial aid, sports programs, etc. Which either benefit you or they don’t. But it also could trickle down into things like class sizes, which US News does evaluate. BTW, as I understand it, US News does collect and evaluate faculty salary data, adjusted for cost of living.

If someone cares to look up the salary and class size data from US News for some of the schools discussed we can see if there is an evident effect. If they publish it, that is.

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