<p>Ohhh. Makes sense, Trufflie.</p>
<p>And good point La Tina!</p>
<p></p>
<p>So it seems that thus far we’ve proven that Ivy League students have higher high school stats on average. That was not the intention of this discussion.</p>
<p>Actually, it is because, although seemingly tangential, it is derived from several posts ago that DID center around the OP’s discussion. Refer to cucumber’s post, where he/she explained why he/she would not attend an Ivy League school. I countered his statement with a statement of my own discussing several factors as to why I believed he was wrong with one of them being that the Ivy League schools contain a better body of students compared to the local state flagship (a reason why I DO want an Ivy League education - the thread) because it is more competitive to be admitted to them and thus requires greater stats, equating to such aforementioned good quality body of students and leading to such a debate of the stats.</p>
<p>Okay tbf, cucumber said that ivy league education is overrated. You countered by saying something along the lines of “it’s not overrated, because you have to be super awesome to get into an ivy league school”</p>
<p>That does not counter anything. Refer to post #80. The caliber of students admitted to a school is no representation of how good the education actually is.</p>
<p>For the record, TRUFFLIEPUFF still has not explained why kids with Ivy-caliber stats will be “better member of society and better prepared for the future”.</p>
<p>Because they have better SAT scores, OBVIOUSLY =p</p>
<p>It’s like comparing someone who goes to school from grades K-12 in a poor area, like downtown LA, to someone who goes to school from grades K-12 in a better-off area, like Palo Alto. Who will be more prepared for college? </p>
<p>Likewise, if two people are studying neurobiology and are planning to be surgeons, one having attended Harvard, which ranks number 1 in that field of study as well as many other studies including but not limited to law, psychology, economics, biology, etc.; and the other having attended UC Merced, who do you think will be better off in their profession?</p>
<p>Why is this so? Because the education at the Palo Alto schools and the Ivy League schools are much more rigorous and thus prepares their students much more adequately. The students themselves are also of the same caliber - as evident by their stats - as the curriculum. If they can’t even handle a simple test well, how can you expect them to succeed in a real world setting?</p>
<p>You guys, be nice now, y’hear?</p>
<p>^^ I asked for evidence before, and I think it really is necessary here. Neither of us are remotely qualified to speculate on post-college employment given that we are both in HS, but I don’t like the high school analogy because it seems to me that the difference in roles and responsibilities is significantly greater going from college to a job vs. high school to college.</p>
<p>What does it mean to be “good” at a profession?</p>
<p>Yes, it IS analogous to the high school situation. Yeah yeah yeah, there is that whole meritocracy issue where as long as you work hard and do well, you will succeed. There are a good handful of people who go to state schools and do well; however, it’s not accurate to look at it that way in such averages. </p>
<p>It’s all about initial opportunity. If you put a through Harvard and watch their career advancement over X years and then put that same person through some state university, i.e. Oklahoma State University, there WILL be a difference. Ivy League schools have internationally renowned and popular professors and celebrities, politicians, and notable figures often drop in on lectures from Al Gore to Bill Clinton to Bill Gates to President Obama. These kids are already smart, as shown by their stats from high school - GPA, SAT/ACT, AP/IB scores - and what more is that they are now presented with connections. These connections don’t just stop at those professors or celebrities - it also includes employers which is perhaps the most significant opportunity that Ivy league students can get. Employers and recruiters from high-profile companies like Goldman and Sachs and Siemens - or perhaps hospitals like Brigham Young for those getting into the medical field - are always dropping by in these schools - Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, etc. </p>
<p>Does this happen at local state and public institutions? Exactly.
I don’t think you would see Goldman and Sachs going anywhere near the University of Texas A&M, would you?</p>
<p>These kids get early exposure to their professions far earlier than what those at state flagships would get which leads to more experience in their profession and thus being able to perform better in it. This is exactly like the situation regarding K-12 schools. The kid in LAUSD school will be presented with less opportunities. Do you see any of those schools ranking or let alone even participating in FIRST Robotics, VEX Robotics, Academic Decathlon, Intel ISEF/STS, Science Olympiad, Siemens, AMC, or any similar contests? Once again - exactly. The one at Palo Alto - well you should know. Just check out the rankings. They are always in the top 10. The kids at Palo Alto have been presented with connections at an early age that have allowed them to gain experience - most of their parents are working in those top notch bio labs or in technology firms, and these kids are exposed to this and are able to grasp onto the knowledge much earlier. These kids have the tools which have allowed them to succeed in such aforementioned academic competitions and events. How am I so far? </p>
<p>Going to an Ivy League school means a clear advantage. By starting out higher than most others on the employment ladder, you are able to advance to higher positions more quickly. What is more important though, is the experience you gain. You start gaining the experience earlier and are able to hone your skills in that profession, just like that kid in Palo Alto whose parents are mathematicians and were able to teach him math at an early age and allow him to succeed in college math by high school and in competitions like the AMC.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Did I claim that?</p>
<p>I don’t believe I did.</p>
<p>And as for average- I don’t know and don’t care. But this MENSA member actually goes to a state school. And I am damn proud of it.</p>
<p>Hm, in response to the thread title:</p>
<p>I want an education that is best suited to me, and can best prepare me for my life. There are several schools that I believe can do this. One of them is an Ivy League school, and my correspondence with one of the professors, as well as the reassurances of the financial aid office that continues to contact me since I told them I was low-income, has strengthened this view. I am not entirely certain that this is the best school for me, but I know I would thoroughly enjoy and benefit from it.</p>
<p>If I was to end up in the extremely unlikely position of being accepted to all the schools I apply to, I would have a tough choice, between schools ranging from a few state universities, to good private universities, to a couple schools considered “top tier” on this website. I am not applying to a single school I do not want to attend (none are there for “reach, match, safety” plans, though I could probably lay them out as such if I wanted to). Every school is “Tier 1”, though that phrase is used more restrictively here than in other places. Every school I am applying to has some program or characteristic that I think is the best of its kind, in one way or another. Therefore, I will have a very tough choice, but every single school on my list would be a pleasure to attend. That’s why I’m not so worried about admissions. I want them all, some will want me, others likely will not. I will attend a school that I want and that wants me, and I will be glad for it.</p>
<p>Thus, I do not want an “Ivy League” education, specifically. I want a great education, whether Ivy League, or, most likely, not.</p>
<p>
And you know this because…? I seriously need some credible evidence, because I just don’t buy it right now.
This is almost a valid point. I think there probably is a tangible difference for people interested in a small number of high-status fields - IBanking and elite management consulting come to mind. However, I don’t think it is accurate to argue that Ivy-caliber student are “more prepared for the future” or ready to become “better members of society”. Sure, they are more prepared to become investment bankers, but only a small subset of the population is headed that direction.
“Early exposure” to a profession will only be relevant for professional fields. Ironically enough, the most professional areas (engineering, accounting, education) are also those where prestige is generally considered least important because of localized hiring, rigorous national standardization, or both.</p>
<p>I still don’t see how the relationship between job skills learned at college and college skills learned in high school.</p>
<p>Here is the evidence that an Ivy League education pays off in the long run: [Which</a> College Grads Earn the Most? - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>
<p>Article Title: Which College Grads Earn the Most?
*"The starting median salary for a Yale graduate was $59,100, the 19th best starting salary in the nation and just behind the median salary for a recent graduate of Lehigh University, a highly selective private university in Bethlehem, Pa. But the midcareer median for a Yale graduate was $126,000, compared with $105,000 at Lehigh. </p>
<p>All of the Ivy League schools made the top 25. Other colleges on the list include Colgate, Stanford, University of Chicago, Bucknell, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Union College, Lehigh, Villanova, Vanderbilt, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Duke, New York University, and Rice. </p>
<p>Interestingly, median starting salaries for alumni of MIT, California Institute of Technology, and Harvey Mudd College, which have strong engineering programs, are the highest in the country ($75,500, $72,200, and $71,800). But the salaries do not get as high for midcareer professionals from those schools as they do for graduates of the elite liberal arts schools."*</p>
<p>It’s not just Investment Banking and Finance. There’s also medical. Brigham Young rigorously recruits people from Harvard, Memorial Sloan and Mount Sinai from Cornell and Columbia, Johns Hopkins frmo Duke, Princeton, and Dartmouth. Many top law (Bingham, Ropes & Gray) and psychology firms like recruit from Yale, Princeton, and Brown. Many top ranking and high paying dentistries recruit from UPenn, Dartmouth, and Columbia. Many international diplomats and ambassadors come from Dartmouth, Brown, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, etc. </p>
<p>Accounting, education, and some types of engineering are not considered the most professional areas. Medical, IT, and finance areas are considered the most professional.</p>
<p>
I have to admit, I rather expected to see this.</p>
<ol>
<li>Payscale is not a “study”; it is based entirely on self-reported data rather than any kind of legitimate sampling technique.</li>
<li>It does not consider students who attend professional schools.</li>
<li>…nor is the cost of living in different areas accounted for.</li>
<li>There is no control for field of study.</li>
<li>There is also no control for student characteristics. Students at elite private universities are disproportionately likely to come from wealthy, educated backgrounds (see IPEDS data on full-pay numbers, Pell %s, etc). Your own claim that top schools attract more high-achieving students completely invalidates any causative relationship you might hope to create between school choice and future earning potential given that student goals are not equally distributed across schools of differing selectivities.
I don’t know of any data indicating that dentists from top schools make more than dentists from lower-ranked schools. Did you choose your dentist based on where they went to school?
Wrong. Medical schools are professional graduate schools; undergrad premeds are pre-professional not professional. A bachelors with a premed emphasis is not a professional degree; an ABET-accredited engineering degree is.</li>
</ol>
<p>Nursing and IT are closer to what I talked about, and to my knowledge these are not prestige-centric fields. Nor are they best practiced at Ivies.</p>
<p>From what I hear, those wanting to go into investment banking really only have a good chance at Ivys, MIT, Stanford, and some top BBA schools. In that case, going to an Ivy should certainly help.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, mid-50% ACT score…</p>
<p>UMich Engineering 29-33 -State School
Brown University 28-33
Cornell University 28-32
Columbia University 28-33
Dartmouth College 28-34
Harvard University 31-35
Princeton University 30-34
University of Pennsylvania 29-33
Yale University 29-34</p>
<p>Doesn’t really show that Ivy’s have stronger students except at Harvard and Princeton.</p>
<p>^Your data is really old. For example, the mid-50% range at Columbia is 31-34. I suspect all of the others (except Harvard) are now higher than what’s set forth in your post.</p>
<p>^Source? I’m finding different numbers for Columbia (including 27-32 and 29-34) but no 31-34.</p>
<p>[College</a> Search - Columbia University - SAT®, AP®, CLEP®](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>
<p>I guess I’ll go ahead and answer the OP’s question. I don’t really want an Ivy League education because their engineering programs are lackluster, with the exception of Cornell (which gets railed on for being the “lowest” Ivy, despite being one of the hardest). I could go to my in-state flagship, which is a top 10 engineering school, for a fifth of the cost.</p>