<p>If anyone (with high enough scores)can earn an MD, become a doctor, and make a lot of money, what are the incentives to go to a better med school? Also why not just go to a cheaper med school in Canada or another foriegn country and come to the US to take the medical examination (not sure of the name).</p>
<p>Well, you might not want to go foreign because it is more difficult to graduate from a foreign medical school than it is to graduate from one in the U.S. Plus, if you want to make it into a really competetive residency, a US-based, highly ranked med school may give you the advantage with that.</p>
<p>This is the point I've been trying to make. For private practice<a href="a%20term%20which%20nobody%20on%20this%20board%20seems%20to%20understand">/b</a> **prestige really does not make that big a difference. "High enough scores" don't even matter, except for passing, which everybody does.</p>
<p>All the medical schools in the US give you an MD. All of them give their students great opportunities afterwards.</p>
<p>Now, there are a few caveats to this. If you're looking for a career in:
1.) Academic medicine<a href="being%20a%20professor%20at%20a%20medical%20school;%20private%20practice%20is%20basically%20everything%20else">/b</a>, prestige ("name-branding") matters some.
**2.) Super-elective procedures to the super-rich (i.e. liposuction for Hollywood), then name-branding matters quite a bit, but notice that this name-branding is not actually perfect; I'd wager that Stanford or Yale are considered more prestigious than Penn or Wash U even though the opposite is the case in medical fields.
3.) The ROAD to success<a href="Radiology,%20Ophthalmology,%20Anesthesiology,%20Dermatology">/b</a>, then prestige matters some.
-or-
4.) A medically-related but **not-medicine career eventually - i.e. if you want to be Mark McClellan, David Kessler or Julie Gerberding. </p>
<p>As BRM is fond of explaining, excelling is a panacea, especially for #1 and #3. (#2 and #4 are harder because Paris Hilton and George Bush and such tend not to understand board scores and research.) Good board scores, strong grades, etc. can all compensate for this.</p>
<p>So basically? You get a mild advantage if you want to become a professor or go on the ROAD. You get a large advantage if you want to be Paris Hilton's personal doctor or director of Medicare. Otherwise, there's no reason whatsoever, unless you simply have the money and time (as a premed) to burn.</p>
<p>(In case anybody's curious, I'm in category 4.)</p>
<p>Oh, and for foreign med schools there's this:</p>
<p>Jump to the end of the thread in particular for some statistics from BRM.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Bigredmed: ...the statistics show that while about 93% of US M2's pass Step 1 on the first try, and 74% of Osteopathic students pass first try , they also show that only 65% of IMG's pass on the first try. It makes sense that if you are simply less likely to pass in the first place that you are also far less likely to get a high score that will improve your chances of getting a residency you want.</p>
<p>bluedevilmike: There are many residencies that will not be open to you no matter how well you score on USMLE, and others that will be open if and only if you score very, very well. Even if you get a 260, you will STILL be facing a huge uphill battle... Your residency options will be extremely stressful and limited (not able to apply for the majority of US residencies based on location and specialty, forced to go back to your "home country" afterwards for years), being isolated in a foreign country for several years, having no backup options if this (as is likely) fails, placing yourself in a position to do poorly once you do get here, and robbing yourself of a college education. </p>
<p>Bigredmed:Breakdown of Match Stats</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nrmp.org/2006advdata.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.nrmp.org/2006advdata.pdf</a></p>
<p>Key stat for 2006: </p>
<p>US Seniors matched for PGY-1: 93.7%
Osteopaths matched for PGY-1:67.9%
US Foreign grads matched for PGY-1: 50.4%
Non US Foreign grads matched for PGY-1: 48.9%</p>
<p>US seniors and Osteopaths are also likely at a big advantage for finding unfilled positions during "the scramble" simply b/c their schools and deans are going to be helping them find unfilled positions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>just curious bdm, what medical school are you attending?</p>
<p>PM me if you're curious; I don't post that online because it's irrelevant for the vast majority of kids (who are aiming for private practice).</p>
<p>
[quote]
1.) Academic medicine (being a professor at a medical school; private practice is basically everything else), prestige ("name-branding") matters some.
2.) Super-elective procedures to the super-rich (i.e. liposuction for Hollywood), then name-branding matters quite a bit, but notice that this name-branding is not actually perfect; I'd wager that Stanford or Yale are considered more prestigious than Penn or Wash U even though the opposite is the case in medical fields.
3.) The ROAD to success (Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology), then prestige matters some.
-or-
4.) A medically-related but not-medicine career eventually - i.e. if you want to be Mark McClellan, David Kessler or Julie Gerberding.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would add a category #5 - which is if you want the flexibility to have a future career that has nothing to do with medicine whatsoever. Prominent examples of these would be author/film director/film producer Michael Crichton, Senator Bill Frist, poet Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr., and philosopher William James. They all got their MD's from Harvard Medical School.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that Harvard Medical School's most famous alumni are all famous for things that have nothing to do with medicine. I suppose that is part of the Harvard mystique.</p>
<p>HMS also has Paul Farmer (plenty to do with medicine) and Ethan Canin (nothing to do with medicine)</p>
<p>I will add, however, that for #5, if you're reasonably confident you won't want to have anything to do with medicine, you should probably take a more direct route to those paths.</p>
<p>Bump for resurgent obsession with "top" medical schools.</p>
<p>For anybody who needed clarification, the ROAD is explained right there in the post. It's an acronym/pun.</p>
<p>So, bluedevilmike, r u saying that as long as a kid wants to be a private practitioner he need not worry about prestigious med. school? Now, I've several questions, does it matter a lot to go to a top college for undergrad studies in order to get admitted to a top medic school? I'm in the same pool of huge group who wants to get involved w/ private practice/ gov. hospitals. I also do want to live in a major US City (let's just say NYC, LA or Washington) Now, for fulfilling this goal, do u think that as long as I can get into a medic school and obtain an MD or DO, it will be fine? I've also heard that MCAT is WAY too tough!? How true is it? My uncle (who himself is an MD) always insists upon me to get into a program which will waive MCAT.</p>
<p>1.) Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, with the exceptions above as noted.</p>
<p>2.) <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202936%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202936</a></p>
<p>3.) Major city would be somewhat harder, but -- still. Doctors are always very in demand, no matter where they trained.</p>
<p>4.) The MCAT is certainly not an easy test, but most of the kids who could get into a BS/MD program are on track to have aced the MCAT. In other words, it will pose a problem for lots of people -- but not the kinds of kids who can get into such a program.</p>
<p>In the future, PMs and public posts should not overlap.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I want to work within the government, maybe CDC or local or state govt. as a health officer or something like that. I feel that it would be really fascinating working with health policy and public health programs. [...] I'm just wonderin if you know anything about that career path...like how to get there, salary ranges, job availablity etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're discussing a couple of different careers here, and even if I knew which one you were talking about I'm afraid I wouldn't know about salary ranges and ease of employment.</p>
<p>It's important not to make the mistake of confusing public health with health policy, as they're very different things. Health policy involves making decisions regarding things like Medicare, Medicaid, physician shortages, etc. Public health revolves largely around questions of epidemiology and why certain groups are more prone to certain diseases.</p>
<p>I suspect both pay rather poorly in comparison to practicing medicine.</p>
<p>If your goal is to consult occasionally with local or state health officials, then getting an MPH in addition to your MD will go a long way. I'd recommend getting your MPH from a different institution if possible, although I recognize how annoying that would be. Specifically, I would try hard to get the MPH from a school in the area you eventually wanted to consult with.</p>
<p>If your goal is eventually to end up in a high position in the federal government, the prestige of your undergraduate degree, your major, and the prestige of your medical school will all matter a great deal. If this is an important part of your education, then, I would be very hesitant to go to the BS/MD track you mentioned.</p>
<p>If you wanted to be very intense about resume-polishing, you should probably go to an Ivy-caliber undergrad, major in Public Policy or Economics, attend a well-known medical school, and get a second degree of some kind -- an MBA, MPP, PhD, or JD for policy, or an MPH for public health. This degree in particular ought to be from a prestigious school -- the others matter but are probably a little less important. You would want to do not just a competitive but a cool-sounding specialty, and you'd be best off doing your schooling all at different schools in different parts of the country.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Gerberding%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Gerberding</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_McClellan%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_McClellan</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Aaron_Kessler%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Aaron_Kessler</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Frist%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Frist</a></p>
<p>Q: What do you call a person who finishes last in their med school class?
A: Doctor.</p>
<p>not every doctor makes as much money as some falsely assume. some live very middle-class lives. the name of your medical school matters quite a bit if you take a look at the match lists (residency placement) for top schools like Hopkins and Yale vs. lesser known schools. top schools place a huge chunk of their graduating classes into prestigious (as BDM said, the ROAD) specialties at top programs. do a google search and you'll see the difference.</p>
<p>Yeah. But since private practice doesn't really depend on the name of your residency, then better med schools placing into better residencies doesn't have a particularly large impact either.</p>
<p>But, as mentioned, if it's a tough specialty to match into at all -- then it does help quite a bit.</p>
<p>See quote here:
[quote]
i was just wondering why it is important to go to a top medical school (at least in terms of rankings)
seems like all the doctors, at least in one particular field, get paid the same despite the GREAT difference in medical school prestige. anything more worthwhile besides having a better brand name on a resume and more top-notch connections/friends?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>BRM's excellent treatment of this topic can be found here:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=375248%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=375248</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Basically, if you are hoping to do private practice (ie like most physicians in the US) then where you attend medical school, and complete your residency is not that important - patients are unlikely to ever ask, and less likely to even care if they think you are doing a good job...</p>
<p>If you are hoping to go into one of the notoriously difficult to obtain residency fields like Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesia or Dermatology, our general consensus is that it couldn't hurt go to a "better" medical school...</p>
<p>If you are hoping to go into academic medicine or heavily research oriented medicine, then where you go to medical school and complete your residency matters anywhere from a little to a lot more...</p>
<p>Finally if you are hoping to go into a field where perceived public opinion of your medical training will play a large role in your success, then obviously going to a name school will be better. Careers like being plastic surgeon to the rich and famous, or being involved in politics or lobbying will be enhanced if you are from some place like Harvard. ...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with the previous posters that those interested in academic medicine and competitive subspecialties have an advantage if they come from top programs ( I have served on the residency selection committee of a highly ranked medical school). Moreover, even if one were interested in more common areas of medicine such as internal medicine or pediatrics, going to a top medical school makes it easier to get into a top residency program. At a less-ranked school, one would have to be at the very top of his/her class to get into such programs. This has benefits, particularly if one then wants to pursue subspecialty training in competitive ares such as cardiology or G.I. On the other hand, where you go to medical school probably does not matter to your patients, particularly if you are practicing primary care medicine. There are happy to have a caring and qualified physician.</p>
<p>As someone already mentioned, where you attend medical school may also matter if you want to be a subspecialist in certain popular fields such as opthalmology or dermatology, or are trying to market yourself in a boutique branch of medicine whether it be cosmetic plastic surgery, non-traditional medicine or nutration with perhas a fad diet (seems like many of the better selling authors have fairly respectable credentials, at least on paper). I also agree that in healthcare management, government administration, venture capitalism, going to a name-brand school may also help as these type of jobs tend to be high profile, and one wants to establish rapid credibility with the public or investors. Just like in law, credentials matter in such situations even if it does not necessarily reflect genuine expertise. I also would say that sometimes careers can take unusual turns, and that one may not have predicted in medical school what one would be doing twenty years afterwards. However, just as going to a highly regarded university or college can increase options, so it is true for medical school. Some of these options have nothing to do with medicine so where you go does not play a huge role-e.g., Gertrude Stein attended Hopkins (did not graduate) and William Carlos Williams graduated from Penn but they are primarily known as poets with little consideration of their medical background. On the other hand, authors like Michael Crichton or Lewis Thomas who wrote about fictional and non-fictional topics in medicine probably benefited initially having a Harvard Medical School connection. I also look at the career of someone like Bernadine Healey who went to Hopkins and then pursued an academic career before becoming director of the NIH, Cleveland Clinic, Red Cross, and is now a commentator for U.S. News. Her Hopkins medical degree may have helped initially but each of her subsequent positions depended upon her previous accomplishments. Also, of note, the past 8 surgeon generals attended Utah, Puerto Rico, Ohio State, Arkansas, Meharry, Case Western, UCSF, and George Washington, respectively, which certainly represents a full spectrum of medical schools based purely on academic reputation. So attending a 'pretigious" medical school is not a prerequisite for attaining a high prolfile job in medicine.</p>
<p>One other plug for attending larger and more well known schools would be the range of faculty and clinical experiences available. If one wants to be a molecular biologist, a cardiac transplant surgeon, and or public health specialist focusing on AIDS prevention, these options are all available at such a school. Primary care medicine opportunities also would still be available. On the other hand, some schools which have mostly a primary care focus will not have the diversity of opportunities as the former. Sometimes being exposed to an exciting area or meeting an inspiring mentor can change one's career course in unanticipated ways.</p>
<p>What exactly is a residency program? I've never heard of it before. Thanks.</p>