<p>“I hear you that so and so’s grandpa started an investment firm in Dubuque which supported the family for generations…everyone goes to the University of Iowa. That’s great for them, but that sort of largesse is limited and is held closely in the family.”</p>
<p>I think you might be surprised how similar the lifestyle of the people who started the investment firm in Dubuque and the lifestyle of the people who started the investment firm in Philadelphia might turn out to be. Fundamentally, upper middle class is upper middle class no matter where you are in this country. </p>
<p>Anecdotally only, since we’re speaking of Iowa - I can pop on my Facebook and find the following friends in Iowa -
Couple #1: Husband Harvard, wife Northwestern. Daughters at Bowdoin and Colgate, son at Penn.<br>
Couple #2: Husband Princeton, wife Northwestern. Kid at Princeton (in an old-money prep sport), kid at Northwestern. </p>
<p>I guarantee you that just because they’re both from (different cities in) Iowa, their lifestyles are really not all that appreciably different and their kids are not country-bumpkins-on-campus. </p>
<p>If Ivys and flagmans are not that important and good, than why that many people are trying to apply there? Are they all idiots? Are they all just “trophy collectors”?</p>
<p>If Ivys and flagmans are not that important, why affirmative action advocates push these schools to admit more African-American and Latino students? Does it mean that Ivys and flagmans are important for everyone URMs, but not others?</p>
<p>If Ivys and flagmans are not that important, why affluent parents want their kids to be there? Are they all stupid? </p>
<p>I feel like in some weird marketplace. Imagine a long line of people, frantically buying the same thing. Imagine an analyst, in front of this line, who is trying to convince me that this item is useless. </p>
<p>Imagine that marketplace as a clothing store. If you’re a size 0-petite (or size 14-medium) and the stores are all selling size 4’s designed for models who are six-feet tall, it’s not that the clothes aren’t good…but that they’re not good for you. Or maybe they sell cutting-edge fashion, and you’re more of a classic-elegance type. Still not a good fit for you. Then that sales person (or analyst) is doing you a favor by reminding you that one size does not fit all. </p>
<p>I don’t think there’s any one way to identify immigrants to the US–they are like any other group. You can’t generalize about their views on colleges or much else for that matter. There are differences across groups. I’m betting (don’t have data to back it up) that perhaps the one thing these immigrant groups all agree upon is that the parents want their kids to go to college. But do they ALL push their kids to go to HYPS or other elite schools–I don’t think so. </p>
<p>What’s your answer, californiaa? Why are you set on Stanford for daughter who is still in early hs? Do you yet know the programs and opportunities specifically that fit her and will enrich her, the real nature of the competition and experience? Or more the rep? Could you answer a “Why Stanford?” question in the manner adcoms like? Could she? </p>
<p>Agreed. For some odd reason there is a lot of stereotyping based on the status of “immigrant” when that is probably the most diverse group of people on all dimensions. </p>
<p>And some people like to single that group out as having different expectations. But from who exactly? The average non-immigrant (whatever that is)?</p>
<p>I grew up learning about Harvard and Yale and why one is a better fit for me than the other from none other than Thurston Howell III. It is ridiculous to lump his views as a “non-immigrant” just as much as it is ridiculous to keep talking about “immigrants believe…”.</p>
<p>“If Ivys and flagmans are not that important and good, than why that many people are trying to apply there? Are they all idiots? Are they all just “trophy collectors”?”</p>
<p>No one is saying that Ivies aren’t very good schools. They are. They are all uniformly excellent schools. We are trying to counter the mindset of people just like you, who think that there are only a handful of excellent schools and that Ivy (and maybe MIT and Stanford) confers some magic dust that other top schools don’t provide. That’s not the American experience. </p>
<p>The American experience is that there are lots of excellent schools in lots of different flavors (as Hunt always says, there are about 50 schools in the top 20), AND that a determined, motivated smart kid can get almost anywhere he needs to go from a state flagship. It’s an abundance mindset that characterizes the US, not the scarcity mindset and zero-sum mentality that characterizes where a lot of these immigrants came from - where there are tiers and the tier determines your future.</p>
<p>Just because someone believes that the Ivies are excellent and preferred by a lot of people, as demonstrated by their acceptance rates, does NOT mean they are saying that other schools are not excellent.</p>
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<p>Funny. Those 50 in the top 20 each should get a participation trophy.</p>
<p>@Ellimom: but it’s not a clothing store. A very important difference is that the store will measure you up first - quite rigorously before selling you their merchandise…</p>
<p>@pizzagirl: so you think the major drive for the ever increasing selectivity of Ivy+ and the race to the the top in recent years is because of immigrants joining in the game? Because you seem to imply that the “obsession” from other groups has been a constant and therefore shouldn’t be contributing to the drastic change we have witnessed in recent years. I feel like you have found a new way to strengthen your position, which is that if one is still obsessed with Ivy+ then they are thinking and acting like those “un-American” immigrants and they should be better than that. Did I get that message right?</p>
<p>You know, benley, I’m not the one who initially proposed or suggested that an important driver for the increasing selectivity of Ivies and the race to the top was primarily due to immigrants. I think it’s a factor, but I never said or implied it’s the only thing. </p>
<p>And that was exactly my point of extending califoniaa’s analogy directly above my post: “I feel like in some weird marketplace. Imagine a long line of people, frantically buying the same thing. Imagine an analyst, in front of this line, who is trying to convince me that this item is useless.”</p>
<p>It’s not that an education at an elite school is “useless.” But it is not a good fit for everyone. IMO, some of the craziness happens because parents don’t get that the choice is not between “elite U uniform” and “naked and afraid.” They think they’re doing right by their kids, but in reality they’re devaluing their own children by trying to make them something they’re not. </p>
<p>Perhaps not, but then maybe they aren’t the people who are strategizing their child’s Ivy application from the time they sign their newborn up for the “right” preschool. There is a segment of the population who is so hyperfocused on getting accepted to an Ivy, any Ivy, that I have a hard time believing they think those other “excellent” schools are good enough for them, and I think that attitude trickles down. I see it all over CC. Ivies are the only worthwhile colleges in some people’s eyes. Others, who are aspiring to a top 20, cast aspersions on those “settling” for a top 50. State flagships and regionals are looked down upon by many and CCs are a fate worse than death. But it’s good business for the colleges and lenders, isn’t it? The financial aid threads are full of families contemplating taking on THOUSANDS of dollars in debt they can’t afford for these name schools. If they truly believed other schools were excellent, why would they be turning down low cost/free ride offers to take on that kind of debt?</p>
Hoo boy. Well, I’ll bite on this. I do think a substantial portion of the current obsession is centered on immigrant families who come from countries where this kind of obsession is necessary for success, because admission to the best colleges is based on high-stakes tests, and going to the best colleges is necessary for desirable jobs. And since people don’t like generalizations about immigrants, I’ll also say that it is not Canadians who are driving this, but predominantly Chinese immigrants. Not only Chinese immigrants, of course–there are others, and there are non-immigrants who are involved in this rat race as well. But let’s be honest–the “you didn’t get into Harvard, so you might as well go to the state university” is almost a litmus test for being from a Chinese immigrant family (although cobrat no doubt knows somebody else for whom this happened). This is not because of anybody’s race, or ethnic background. It is because of cultural elements that do not translate perfectly into the U.S. educational system. It would be like moving to a country where rugby is the dominant sport and thinking that training in American football skills should be the key to success in getting onto a top rugby team.</p>
<p>I think there may be an overall increase in the educational rat race, but I think a lot of that is due to the internet, the ability to learn about and apply to more schools, the weakening of regional ties, the growing cost of college, and factors like that. So it’s not all one thing.</p>
<p>This is an interesting topic to me. My belief is that affluent families are extremely aware of the widening economic gulf within our nation, and they are willing to invest whatever it takes to ensure that their children are on the good side of that divide.</p>
<p>To quote the NY Times from 2012:</p>
<p>“A study by Sabino Kornrich, a researcher at the Center for Advanced Studies at the Juan March Institute in Madrid, and Frank F. Furstenberg, scheduled to appear in the journal Demography this year, found that in 1972, Americans at the upper end of the income spectrum were spending five times as much per child as low-income families. By 2007 that gap had grown to nine to one; spending by upper-income families more than doubled, while spending by low-income families grew by 20 percent.”</p>
<p>As fast as college tuition costs are rising, those rates are being far outpaced by the increased spending on education by affluent parents. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, another study looking at the correlation between income and standardized test performance, finds that that between 1960 and 2007, the gap in standardized test scores between affluent and low-income students had grown by nearly 40 percent. That same study shows the correlation between education and lifetime earnings. </p>
<p>Yes, parents’ behavior sometimes appears “crazy.” But a reasoned argument can be made that sound economic theory supports their behavior - even if the crazy parents aren’t even aware of it.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Hunt, except for the point about Chinese. I believe that the term Asians would offer a better overall description, and this despite such group not being homogeneous. We have had plenty of discussions about the differences between Mountain and Agrarian Asians versus third generations ABC to know that generalizations rarely work. Yet, the active Indians and Koreans are not idle participants in the rat race.</p>
<p>This said a strict definition of Chinese immigrants might miss the poster child of this active group. Yes, I refer to the TigerMom on steroids, Mrs. Chua. </p>