Why have parents gone crazy in the last 10 years?

Parents Forum
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<p>Back on page 10…</p>

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<p>Not sure why this plan makes sense. The PSAT can qualify for National Merit scholarships. AP tests can allow for advanced placement in college (though one should use care and try the college’s final exams before skipping courses), so that the student can substitute more interesting free electives instead of repeating frosh-level courses.</p>

<p>Neither requires taking much time away from activities that one enjoys. PSAT preparation doubles up on SAT preparation, if the student bothers to prepare at all – back when I was in high school, PSAT or SAT preparation was just trying the sample questions in the small booklet describing the test. Preparing for the AP test was just a byproduct of taking the corresponding AP course; no additional preparation should be necessary (similar to how preparing for the achievement / SAT subject tests consisted of just taking the high school course in the subject, with no additional preparation).</p>

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<p>@jym626 - I do not blame the college costs or the admissions system.</p>

<p>Price hikes and signing of education loans are not passive events, i.e., they must be agreed to by the consumer. There is a reason very few cars cost $100k, with most being much, much cheaper - people will refuse to purchase enough to keep current car companies in business. Yet, colleges across the spectrum (elites to extremely average ones) are all the same price, approx. $50 - 60K. This can only happen if people, i.e., consumers, literally roll over and pay it, and they are obviously. With admit rates for many schools dipping below 20%, there is no reason or incentive to lower the price. Clearly, people are accepting the current price points.</p>

<p>Education, like any other pay-to-play market, is driven by market forces; no one is forced to buy high-priced education. Therefore, it takes crazy parents to pay high prices in order to have high prices. It takes crazy parents to pay 15+ application fees to have such high per-student application numbers. It takes crazy parents to accept someone telling them their kids need X, Y, and Z to have a strong application in order to have this incessant drive to take seemingly endless tests when all colleges only REQUIRE and ASK for one, two, three or four tests TOTAL, with some asking for NONE. It takes crazy people to drive kids everywhere, so the kids can be seen as god-like volunteerers and as having that coveted EC summer program. </p>

<p>I blame crazy parents who do not know they do not have to always follow a cabal of dear leaders. No need to accept everything just because everything is presented. This concept that any system is all or none is nonsensical. Parts of some systems, public education being one such system, make little sense and should be changed or made more flexible. However, until people just say no, then the crazy people will rule and everyone is stuck with the silly seemingly one-size-fits-all nonsense.</p>

<p>The keys to any successful business or enterprise are flexibility and cost containment of product, but if your consumers demand neither, then the consumers deserve what they get, a failed or to be failed enterprise / system. And consumers who do not demand better are definitely crazy because they are self-sabotaging, as they are the ones paying the price. </p>

<p>Additionally, by definition, for any successful business or enterprise nothing is mandatory because if it were then flexibility and cost containment would not be achievable goals to continually get the best product. To accept mandatory, is to set accept a slowly (or quickly) failing business because improvement and necessary change is prevented.</p>

<p>@doro297 - I agree; not much good comes of the current scenario described in your post. This concept that stats, results and accomplishments must be posted and announced to the world is beyond my pay grade to comprehend. I never had the need for strangers to affirm to me what I did was great, if I did do something exceptional. Family and close friends I get, and I always told them, and they celebrated with me; I bet everyone gets that. But this need to share with total strangers on public media and the need to get affirmation from strangers is beyond my capabilities to comprehend. My kids do not get it either, and I am thrilled about that. However, I do think you are on to something about insecurity and, probably more accurately, the lack of security provided by family and close friends</p>

<p>@fallenchemist - Saw your post about global-warming, but in interest of the thread, I will not respond, as to not hijack the thread. </p>

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<p>@ucbalumnus stated, “Neither requires taking much time away from activities that one enjoys.” </p>

<p>It is a question of value. Our family really values an hour here and an hour there and another hour somewhere else, which adds up to many hours over four years. One plus one still equals two. </p>

<p>We saw and still see higher value in using our time differently than on tests the colleges did not even require. That is a choice, of which you and anyone else are free to choose differently. I respect your choice to have your children take the tests. Just like we choose to vaccinate, while others choose not to. I still have Dad who has never gotten a flu shot and also has never gotten the flu, and he is 80. </p>

<p>Basically for us, if our kids took a class and aced it (they aced every one) then no need to waste time taking a test colleges did not require. We rather take them out to lunch and spend time with them, which is exactly what my wife and I did many a time. </p>

<p>And no one seems to add in the costs of getting to and from the tests, and the opportunity costs extracted in not being able to do something else with said time. That was just tons of wasted hours to us, which we happily chose to use differently. Given where our kids are in school and currently accepted, this worked for us, and we also had the benefit of many a morning and afternoon with our kids that were irreplaceable in terms of times spent with them. We value that time with them, as priceless; the not-required-for-college test time, we valued at zero. </p>

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<p>There is a child in another thread who intends to apply to Stanford “in a few years” wondering what ECs, APs, SAT scores, and school activities s/he needs to be accepted. I don’t believe this child has started high school yet and already they’re building their life around what some unknown college adcom wants instead of pursuing what interests them. That’s sad.</p>

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<p>@awcntdb‌ -
As I said, I have not read this entire thread, but it seems you have been a very active participant and have some strong opinions. You are entitled to yours. And we are entitled to ours.</p>

<p>There are so many variables that affect sociocultural changes these days. And they have been discussed many times on CC. There are helicopter parents, for sure, but the ease of communication, the increase in number of students applying for competitive activities (sports, music, dance, etc), the increasing international changes in our country with the cultural belief systems that accompany them all combine (WITH the increased cost of college, the ease of applying to many, and the increased number of applicants to a finite number of spots) has , IMO, all contributed to the increased intensity of this process. </p>

<p>My oldest s started college 10 years ago, so yes, I’ve personally watched this process change over the last decade. But I don’t blame the “crazy parents”.</p>

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<p>As an aside, at our schools, if one takes an AP course they are committing to take the AP exam. A student can’t “blow it off”. Granted in come cases graduation occurs before the AP exams so perhaps it is possible to skip a test ( dunno-- would be ill advised here) but in lower grades the report cards dont come out til after the AP exams are taken and I IIRC its considered part of the grade (taking the test).</p>

<p>Totally agree with UCB- In many cases students can get a lot of college credit with AP credit and graduate in 3 years, as well as getting advanced/priority ranking for registration. ANd both my kids benefitted form the National Merit scholarships. Spending a little time preparing and taking an hour test is a wise investment.</p>

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<li>typo above and too late to change,. In some cases the graduation occurs before the exam date. But that affects only the seniors, obviously.</li>
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<p>And that is how the meta thread got started. </p>

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<p>Our school district requires students to take APs if they take the class and they pay for them. If the seniors blow off the exam the schools can’t do much but many do take them in order get past some classes in college since they will know which classes have credit and which don’t based on the college they are planning to attend.</p>

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<p>MomofJandL - well played. </p>

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<p>@Pizzagirl‌ @MomofJandL‌ Lol! I was thinking along the same lines, and saying to myself, “Oh no…here we go…” :slight_smile: </p>

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<p>"Our school district requires students to take APs if they take the class and they pay for them. If the seniors blow off the exam the schools can’t do much "</p>

<p>State of Florida pays for all AP tests, and they are required if you sign up for an AP class. You agree to it when you sign up for the AP class. They are given during the school day and since school is required if are enrolled in public school, no time is lost. Taking your children to breakfast would not be an excused absence. Of course you can lie and excuse the student for something else, but if you are truthful, it would be an unexcused absence. If you don’t take the AP exam, you pay $92. That’s the rule (and maybe the law).</p>

<p>Parents are being criticized for pushing their kids in sports and academics to get ahead, but why shouldn’t they do what they want to do? Yesterday I went to the signing ceremony at our school where 22 kids committed to play sports in college. Were these ‘hooks’? I don’t think so. These are kids who are very qualified for the schools they are going to, including MIT (4.55 GPA), the Naval Academy, FSU, and a whole bunch of much smaller schools. Did sports help them get in? Yes, if you consider that they can’t skip school if they play sports, have to keep up their grades, have to put in many hours of community service with their teams, and that some (including mine) couldn’t afford their chosen schools without the athletic money. My own daughter is an Academic All-American, her college merit scholarship is larger than her academic one, and she would have been easily admitted to her chosen school without the sport (but we couldn’t afford it).</p>

<p>The same can be said for the kids in music and marching band, or in drama, or on academic teams; it doesn’t have to be sports. Kids involved in their school’s activities are more successful in life so why shouldn’t parents encourage their activities, drive them to practices, pay for coaching and camps and tutoring? It makes them better people.</p>

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<p>^^ Lots on CC lately devoted to some posters’ personal views on what’s right. I guess we all do it, but not take up as much space. Yes, “here we go, again.”</p>

<p>Guess I could say, think of the class hours saved if one just took the darned AP tests and could skip a few required college courses, indulge in others. We all weigh differently. </p>

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I have no particular bone to pick with athletic recruitment, but it’s certainly not the case that kids in these other activities get the admissions bumps–and cash–that athletes get.</p>

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<p>If you work hard all year long in a decent AP class, you really don’t need to study that much for the exams, and I still feel it’s a good thing to look over the material again rather than take an in one ear, ace the test, out the other approach. I think most experts on learning would agree that reviewing material is good for long-term retention. The stress is from the kids who are in over their heads and struggling all year long. The actual exams aren’t that big a deal, and in some classes the kids get together in study groups for them which makes it also a social thing and is good practice for college.</p>

<p>Regarding the PSAT, well, my daughter learned some grammar and vocab which I think will serve her well. She studied at home over the summer in a pretty low key way. She would have had a shot at it with just a few practice exams, but I didn’t think the prep was a waste of time; she was closing significant holes in her background. It has been reassuring to know that she would have the option of taking those generous scholarship offers. And if you work out the ROI on the time she spent, even though she is only taking the least-generous NMF option, it was still a great deal.</p>

<p>If your kids would have been stressed out by the PSAT and AP, if that would have ruined their high school years, then you did the right thing. But I don’t see why you assume it would be the same for other kids. If your kids needed to be rewarded with a dinner out to encourage them to do what they feel like doing, fine. My kids just do what they feel like doing. My daughter is only in two of the same activities she started in freshman year. She picked up and dropped activities along the way as she wanted to. Her other two main activities this year are new for this year. No discussion of “what it will look like” and no bribery involved.</p>

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<p>The PSAT is a cheap (in time and money) way to try for lots of large scholarships. Perhaps it is of no value if the family is so wealthy that the scholarships do not matter, or if the student has no realistic chance of hitting any scholarship thresholds. But the demographic of these forums which includes high achieving students from families who, though in the top few percent of income and wealth, do have to watch the college costs, is likely to find it a cheap way to try to find money for college.</p>

<p>AP tests taken at the end of AP courses that one does well in are also cheap (in time and money), regardless of whether the high school requires taking them. Being able to substitute free electives in place of common frosh-level courses available anywhere will enhance the utility of one’s college attendance. You might value that as zero, but would the student rather have a free elective instead of a repeating a frosh-level course that s/he may have been able to skip with AP credit? (For senior year AP tests, it may be known which college a student intends to matriculate at, in which case, the student can drop the AP tests that are of no value at that college.)</p>

<p>Of course, the above assumes that the student needs only minimal preparation for test familiarization, as opposed to extensive hours of study to cram for content knowledge outside of what s/he is learning in high school. The latter type of cramming tends to be give low value compared to the former type of preparation and the test itself.</p>

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<p>"I have no particular bone to pick with athletic recruitment, but it’s certainly not the case that kids in these other activities get the admissions bumps–and cash–that athletes get. "</p>

<p>Our school is not a big athletic powerhouse, and of the 22 kids committing yesterday, only a few were to D-1 or D-2, so the majority are not getting cash to play. Even the biggest names, to Navy and MIT, don’t get any money to play. Admission bumps? Maybe, but both had perfect 4.0 gpa’s. I still think the real benefit of sports was how it required the student to act in high school - attending class (an issue at our school), good gpa, be on time, work hard. On senior skip day, the athletes are in class because they can’t play if they didn’t attend that day.</p>

<p>My other daughter is in drama, she did get a small award from her school for talent, but I’ll bet it was bigger than the amount the pole vaulter got to go to FSU; most athletic scholarships are split 20 ways and just a couple thousand dollars. Go over to the theater/musical theater pages and see how much those students are getting in awards for talent. At our high school, band members get varsity letters, and they can compete for the athletic booster club scholarship (because their parents have worked concessions, parking, and clean up just like the rest of us).</p>

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<p>For those of you who haven’t had the pleasure of reading The Meta Thread, enjoy! <a href=“A Meta-thread to save us all time - Parent Cafe - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/501191-a-meta-thread-to-save-us-all-time-p1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>ROI for athletes in the “money sports” can work to the university’s benefit. Most, but not all, of those “money sports” tend to be male dominated (football and baseball, in particular, are basically male-only sports). Think of all the money and intangibles that Johnny Manziel (sp?) has brought to Texas A&M. The money involved in bowl contracts and sponsorship deals is staggering. That’s what is behind the NU football players’ bid to unionize. </p>

<p>Nonscholarship FCS D1 and D3 schools have used that admissions bump in the same way that other D1, D2, and NAIA schools use scholarship money—as a draw to attract selected athletes to a school. (MIT is D3, I believe, and the tuition is free at the service academies, so no money would be involved in students signing letters of intent to those schools, for example, but that’s where the “hook” comes in.) </p>

<p>On the flip side, Title 9 has resulted in a boon for female athletes because it requires that a school allocate participation (including scholarships, IIRC) in a way that does not discriminate against the female athlete. So if the school is providing opportunities for male athletes through scholarship money, they need to provide those opportunities for women as well. Because of the number of athletes needed to mount a football team, that can mean a lot of scholarships and/or positions to be filled for women in sports with less marquis value. Providing equality of opportunity is harder to gauge for schools that provide that opportunity through admissions policies vs. scholarship money, though. </p>

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<p>Back to the OP’s question.</p>

<p>Parents haven’t.
Some parents have always been like that. Nothing new.
What is new is that we have forums like this where we can talk about the fringe cases.
What is also new is that with a 24 hour news cycle with loads of channels, all sorts of fringe cases get presented as the news as if it is a national trend.
What is also new is that there are plenty of people who will try to make money by appealing to fear or greed “Learn the 5 secret prenatal tricks to getting your embryo into an Ivy League school”. </p>