<p>Why do you care so much?? If you are not rushing then let other people worry about "conformity issues" or whatever you want to bring up. You keep bringing up redundant points that are weak and meaningless just to prove a point that nobody here is going to change on. You are beating a dead horse...let it go.</p>
<p>The points I've made are strong. Try to refute them if you want. The only reason I brought them up again was because someone asked for them (see post 78). </p>
<p>Those videos were pretty informative. I didn't know they'd been debated before.</p>
<p>san, your point's HAVE been debated. You just disagree with the arguments.</p>
<p>"Don't different sororities/fraternities have different (even if slightly) norms, ideals, self-concepts, values, ideas, etc.?"</p>
<p>No more and no less than any sets of groups of friends have. You are no more pressured to conform as you are when you voluntarily join or become part of a group of friends. I don't know how much clearer this can be said.</p>
<p>"These differences create an atmosphere where a member of a certain house feels they need to uphold the image they were judged on during the selection process, reinforcing the different "personality" each house is supposed to have."</p>
<p>If a dorm floor winds up splitting into 3 groups, and one group tends to be quieter and more studious and spends Saturday night in the library or watching TV, and one group tends to be louder, more boisterous, more apt to drink and party, and one group is very sporty and outdoorsy, does that mean that the people who chose to be in a certain group were "pressured to conform" because they engage in those activities - or are they just doing the things that attracted them to those other people in the first place? </p>
<p>"Membership in such a tight-knit group influences one's social expectations and strengthens ingroup/outgroup biases."</p>
<p>Dude. I can't speak for fraternities, but there are 100+ girls in a sorority. Not everyone is friends with everyone else. There were girls in my house that I didn't know much more about than names and maybe some details such as majors or where they were from. And there were girls in other houses that I was close with. And that was FINE. There was absolutely no pressure to stay "in-house" for friendships. We didn't all move in a pack of 100 or anything. You are really dealing in stereotypes of what you think Greek life at NU is, and it's really frustrating when you're not listening to us.</p>
<p>Sanjenferrer, if you don't like the Greek system - then don't join us. Why spend time worrying about the alleged conformity issues? If indeed they are true (which they aren't, but let's even play along for a minute), they're not people you want to be with anyway, right? So what do you care if they're "removed" from your social acquaintance lists? I don't know why you care any more than if you saw that other people were joining the tennis team or Young Republicans or the Daily Northwestern or any other club or group that you might not be interested in. If you don't want to be Greek, how does the Greek system affect you?</p>
<p>This thread is still going on? Jeeez</p>
<p>"Those videos were pretty informative."</p>
<p>Sure, if your idea of informative is biased and sensational. Not that good points aren't examined in it, but check out the other threads dealing with it.</p>
<p>Can we just agree to disagree?</p>
<p>"These differences create an atmosphere where a member of a certain house feels they need to uphold the image they were judged on during the selection process, reinforcing the different "personality" each house is supposed to have."</p>
<p>If they weren't comfortable with the girls or guys during the rush process, why are they in that house, again? Your post seems to imply that someone will fake an image to get into a Greek house and then be forced to uphold that fake image. If the superjock rushes a house where all the girls are girly-girls and she has nothing in common with them, then guess what? She won't join them! She's not going to pretend to be all girly-girl, join the girly-girl house and then feel "pressured" to be girly-girl. She's going to click with girls who share her interests. You're mistaking "birds of a feather flock together" with "pressure to conform."</p>
<p>The pressure to conform comes after people have decided they fit in with a particular house. People change over the years, but membership in a house where they are expected to uphold the same image would stifle that change.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No more and no less than any sets of groups of friends have. You are no more pressured to conform as you are when you voluntarily join or become part of a group of friends.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, not for the people who live in sorority/fraternity houses. Houses isolate a particular "type," whereas dorms make up a much more diverse group in terms of values, perspectives, etc.</p>
<p>
[quote]
are they just doing the things that attracted them to those other people in the first place?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>see post 88.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There was absolutely no pressure to stay "in-house" for friendships.
[/quote]
That's good news. Northwestern Greeks are different in this sense.</p>
<p>Aside from the fact that you have been rhetorically and argumentatively crippled throughout this entire thread, you (Sanjen) pushed through.
Despite the fact that you argued the Greek system's inner-workings with males and females, gay and straight, past and present who are/were Greek, you kept posting.
You would ignore arguments and then claim your opponents' ignorance.</p>
<p>Frankly, I'm more impressed than anything else.</p>
<p>You don't like Greeks. WE GET IT! I don't care why. You love to portray others as homophobes, you get off on riding a moral high-horse, you enjoy controversy, you just don't like people in general, you want to up your post total, or you had a bad experience with the Greek community. I won't bother speculating, but your obsession with Greeks is border-line creepy.</p>
<p>You refuse to Greek life as EVERYONE (without exception, mind you) who has been through it has described it. It is a time-intensive club that offers services and opportunities to its members. Considering there are res colleges, I'm not sure Greek life is that different from members of the business club who are in econ majors and live in the commerce dorm. Greek life is more official and organized, but that's that. There are good and bad, gay and straight, nerdy and jockish, homophilic and homophobic in all groups, and Greeks are no exception.</p>
<p>If for nothing else, let it go. Stop ragging on Greeks, don't rush, and live your life. You insist on getting everyone on this board to formally renounce Greek life and that is just not going to happen. I no longer see what you could possibly gain by continuing to put gasoline on the flames. Did you notice how 2 weeks ago everyone was content to let this thread die? You were vastly outnumbered and outexperienced, but the Greek Defenders (it's a pronoun now) were willing to call a ceasefire. Take a hint, quit while you are only moderately behind, and just LET. IT. GO.</p>
<p>Your personal attacks are unwelcome. </p>
<p>
Hahaha, absolutely not. I argued that 1. the Greek system is socially elitist. 2. the fact that certain houses are known as "less tolerant" than others must be because of their distinct characters that dispose them to be so. 3. These characters strengthen ingroup/outgroup biases and stifles personal change especially when members live together. 4. This effect is bad only if the organization is socially elitist and has a questionable purpose for existence. The Greek system fits this criteria.</p>
<p>Your arguments basically boil down to: Greek organizations are just like any other. We disagree on this fundamental difference.</p>
<p> [quote] If for nothing else, let it go.
I respond only when prompted. In fact, I didn't start this discussion; you did (in post 33). I will let this go now unless prompted again.</p>
<p>"Hahaha, absolutely not. I argued that
1. the Greek system is socially elitist. "</p>
<p>Despite the fact that you've been told ad nauseum that someone who joins a certain Greek house is not "prohibited" from having friends elsewhere! In fact, the whole concept is funny - Greeks don't "prohibit" their members from doing anything, other than requiring attendance at chapter meetings and paying dues. Now that you KNOW that, how is joining a Greek house (and having friends outside the house as you see fit) any different from joining the tennis team (and having friends outside the tennis team as you see fit)? </p>
<p>"3. These characters strengthen ingroup/outgroup biases and stifles personal change especially when members live together."</p>
<p>How, precisely, does it stifle personal change? Do you think that all 100+ members of a sorority look / think / act exactly the same way? Because I can assure you that such is not the case, at all. Like any group of 100+ people, there will be different interests and personalities and different sub-groups of interest. </p>
<p>You are making up a world that doesn't exist at NU - a world where a sorority girl who wants to do X has to worry about "am I projecting the right image," a world in which a frat guy who wants to do Y has to worry about "what my brothers will think." It doesn't work that way. I don't know how more clearly it needs to be said. The elitism is in your head, and is your projection onto the system.</p>
<p>"The pressure to conform comes after people have decided they fit in with a particular house. People change over the years, but membership in a house where they are expected to uphold the same image would stifle that change."</p>
<p>Your evidence that there is a specific image that members are expected to hold (and for which they are ostracized if they don't) is .... ? Be specific, please.</p>
<p>If that's the case, I'm afraid I misunderstood what the Greek system at NU is like. It's so different at other schools, making me question what the benefits of being Greek at NU really are.</p>
<p>"If that's the case, I'm afraid I misunderstood what the Greek system at NU is like. It's so different at other schools, making me question what the benefits of being Greek at NU really are."</p>
<p>Ah, so when you were saying that there was pressure to conform to a specific image and that brotherhood = sisterhood meant conformity, you didn't really KNOW that to be true, you were just saying it because you THOUGHT it to be true, right?</p>
<p>Are you a student at NU now, or an accepted senior? Because if you're a student at NU now, it would be pretty hard not to figure out what the benefits of being Greek are.</p>
<p>BTW, sanjenferrer, when you are posting on threads about "who are the hottest guys" and "rate the Chicago area schools according to hotness of the guys" ... isn't judging potential guys just based on their hotness (as opposed to personality, interests, etc.) just as superficial as you claim the Greek system is?</p>
<p>sanjenferrer,</p>
<p>Just because there's a selection process doesn't necessarily mean they are "the same". It's like NU; the student body is diverse yet there's a selection process. The only thing that's the same about them is pretty much everyone did very well academically in HS. I wasn't in the frat so I can't say I know it first hand but from what I gathered, the selection is based more on how well the person would "fit" into the house--as in getting along with others and fun to be around, not necessarily everyone being the same. So if that's the case, the only reason that it seems elistist is that there aren't enough spots and some people will be rejected from joining. I am sure you have good friends who are very different from you yet both of you enjoy the company of each other. ;)</p>
<p>Here's what I meant to post before you posted:</p>
<p>To Pizzagirl:
You seem to be implying that when I say some guys are "hotter" than others that I think they're better. That's simply not the case.</p>
<p>Also, I'm not like a recruitment committee which rejects and admits people based on that criterion. I don't select my partners based on looks nor "personality" (which is often contrived) but by instinct (I try to gauge the byproduct of their attempt to convey a certain image and personality and which reveals their true essence).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ah, so when you were saying that there was pressure to conform to a specific image and that brotherhood = sisterhood meant conformity, you didn't really KNOW that to be true, you were just saying it because you THOUGHT it to be true, right?
[/quote]
That is correct. I assumed that the Greek system at NU is similar to that in other universities because the houses here are members of national fraternity/sorority organizations, which espouse common goals.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are you a student at NU now, or an accepted senior? Because if you're a student at NU now, it would be pretty hard not to figure out what the benefits of being Greek are.
[/quote]
I'm new to NU. Today is my first day (winter transfer). I'm trying to learn from my roommate who's thinking of rushing. He hasn't really explained the benefits yet other than that "it's just something to do."</p>
<p>My peer adviser was hush-hush about "rush," which he said was a word not to be spoken.</p>
<p>... San, you've been posting all this about NU's greek scene without actually being a matriculating student here? Wow. Just wow.</p>
<p>"You seem to be implying that when I say some guys are "hotter" than others that I think they're better. That's simply not the case."</p>
<p>Ooooh-kay. So, it's ok for you to point out superficialities about people, but woe be a Greek person who does. </p>
<p>"Also, I'm not like a recruitment committee which rejects and admits people based on that criterion. I don't select my partners based on looks nor "personality" (which is often contrived) but by instinct (I try to gauge the byproduct of their attempt to convey a certain image and personality and which reveals their true essence)."</p>
<p>What makes you think that your criteria in selecting people that you are interested in getting to know (whether it is as friends or as romantic interests) is any different from that of fraternity brothers and sorority sisters? You meet someone, you assess if you have common interests, if there's a spark, if you think you might enjoy hanging out more / spending time with this person. The only difference (speaking for sororities, but the general principle applies for the guys too) is that rush is more codified, because you're meeting lots of new girls at once and trying to give them all a fair shake, as opposed to just meeting the few girls who live in your dorm or are in your classes.</p>
<p>BTW, while the frats / sororities here are members of national organizations, one thing you may not know about Greek orgs is that the chapters differ very much from campus to campus. You can't say that all Kappas are this or all Chi Omegas are that. You can make some generalities, particularly for the frats like AEPi that are religiously-based, but beyond that, I think you think there is some kind of national stereotype that each chapter has to live up to. </p>
<p>If you're new to NU, it should be obvious - go to a few parties. If you like the guys, explore it further. If you don't, no harm no foul and go on your merry way and make friends through other channels. It's fine. Really. There will be no "elitism" directed your way. BTW, congrats on your transfer. NU's an amazing place. Just please don't prejudge the rest of NU without experiencing it the way you appeared to have judged NU's Greek system without experiencing it.</p>