<p>Imperfect</a> justice system greets sex assault victims at universities - chicagotribune.com</p>
<p>Disgusting</p>
<p>I read the article and it is rather upsetting, but the fact of the matter is that accusations about sexual assault are incredibly difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. I also understand that as the father of a soon to be college age girl, this can be rather frightening. On the other hand though I would like you to present other colleges that have not had any violence or sexual assaults. I know both Harvard and Yale have had problems with both to much larger extent than ND. So my question is, are you going to allow your daughter to apply to Harvard or Yale?</p>
<p>Also, judging an entire school and denying your daughter the opportunity to apply to such a fantastic institution because of one article about one singular case seems rather brash. I hope you can read further into the countless positive attributes that ND brings to its students.</p>
<p>The alleged offender was found not guilty because it was literally the girl’s word against his without any evidence. If she was sexually assaulted, then it’s tragic that he was let off the hook. However, the way burden of proof works is that someone cannot be suspended/expelled when it’s only one word against another.</p>
<p>Of course, you can see the quality of the community:
So while the complaint did not work out in her favor, the community around her, including male students in the alleged offender’s dorm (dorms being tight-knit, four-year communities), were very supportive, moreso than similar reports I have seen from other schools.</p>
<p>We cannot know what happened between these two, and we weren’t in the hearing, but it seems like the victim’s advocate and the board heard both students out; the article also highlights the risks posed to the male student. In cases like this, the university does punish students, and expels those who are convicted in court.</p>
<p>If these are beyond your standards, you should warn your daughter against Yale ([NYP[/url</a>], [url=<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/04/earlyshow/living/parenting/main20050348.shtml]CBS[/url”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/04/earlyshow/living/parenting/main20050348.shtml]CBS[/url</a>], [url=<a href=“Feds Launch Inquiry Into Sexual Harassment At Yale : NPR”>Feds Launch Inquiry Into Sexual Harassment At Yale : NPR]NPR](<a href=“http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/the_ivy_sleaze_at_yale_VSkWtQipcZ60Hr4a3Xk98L]NYP[/url”>Yale under federal investigation for sexual harassment)</a>), Harvard ([ABA](<a href=“Feds Probe: Does Harvard Law School Sexual Harassment Complaint Policy Violate Title IX?”>Feds Probe: Does Harvard Law School Sexual Harassment Complaint Policy Violate Title IX?)</a>), and basically any other college where students have sexual encounters.</p>
<p>Of course, if your daughter shares your penchant for overreaction, unsupported judgement, and not reading all the facts, maybe she should look elsewhere.</p>
<p>By all means, discourage your daughter from applying to Notre Dame, if that makes you feel better. But the truth is that ALL young people who get intoxicated and then put themselves in situations alone with a member of the opposite sex are vulnerable – the girls put themselves at risk of assault, or of sexual activities to which they would not have consented if sober, and the guys put themselves at risk of being accused of sexual assault when a young woman later regrets her sexual behavior with a stranger. So the best approach to keep your children safe is twofold: Provide proper moral/spiritual formation so that they do not regard “hooking up” as harmless recreation, and make sure they understand their limits with regard to alcohol consumption.</p>
<p>Notre Dame is usually condemned for frowning on any sexual activity at all, let alone the non-consensual kind. Now what are they supposed to do if they really don’t have evidence? Our social climate makes these cases even more difficult to judge. My son told me that at his college the women were unbelievably promiscuous. Perhaps the majority of men have always been lust-crazed jerks, but there were enough monogamous women around to make most of them clean up their act. Civilization is built on exclusivity, and when the male/female version of it degenerates there isn’t a whole lot of hope for other institutions. It isn’t surprising to see young men treating life as an endless party when it’s just so easy to, when so many women seem to think it’s a party too.</p>
<p>It’s ironic that feminism has ultimately encouraged women to be more like men in this regard; a seventeen-year-old boy couldn’t have worked out the philosophy any better in the spirit of purely selfish wish-fulfillment. I am by no means claiming that the young woman in question didn’t have a case, nor am I assuming that she isn’t virtuous; I’m simply observing that so many other young women and men have cheapened sexual relationship that the innocent can also suffer for it.</p>
<p>I don’t know why the author of the article (and op of this thread) seem so convinced the male was at fault in all of the discussed cases. Unless you know the specifics of the case, I think it’s wrong to jump to conclusions. </p>
<p>Especially in cases where alcohol is involved (as I’m assuming was the case here), it’s very hard to distinguish if the male is at fault or if the girl just made a drunken mistake and regretted it later. Unless there’s definite proof that a sexual assault occurred, they can’t just take the girl’s side automatically. Such a conviction could ruin a young man’s future and should not be taken lightly.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be very enthusiastic about my child attending ND either. This isn’t the first story about students being raped at ND with little action by the school or local law enforcement. One or two previous students aren’t speaking up because they committed suicide. On one student:
[Notre</a> Dame case: No charges - chicagotribune.com](<a href=“http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-20101217-nd-story,0,5645198.story]Notre”>Notre Dame case: No charges)</p>
<p>The Tribune said they wrote the story because “Our review found that women who report sexual violence on college campuses seldom see their accused attackers arrested and almost never see them convicted.”
[How</a> we reported on campus sexual assaults - chicagotribune.com](<a href=“http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/tribnation/chi-how-we-reported-on-campus-sexual-assaults-20110617,0,4560837.story?obref=obinsite]How”>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/tribnation/chi-how-we-reported-on-campus-sexual-assaults-20110617,0,4560837.story?obref=obinsite)</p>
<p>It’s no wonder the Justice Dept. is investigating.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are a few sketchy allegations, but to say that rape of college students should be ignored because they are often drunk and the women will lie through the whole process for their own gain is purely ignorant.</p>
<p>
I searched extensively; this appears to be a lie.</p>
<p>
No, the point is that you cannot convict someone if there is no proof.</p>
<p>How would you feel if your son was falsely accused, there was 0 proof, everyone believed the girl, he was arrested, expelled, and charged? I’m sorry, but you have to have evidence to get someone in trouble. Otherwise, people accuse others they just don’t like (several notable cases like this have happened).</p>
<p>Many actually are suspended, and 10-25% are permanently expelled, roughly equivalent to the number criminally charged, according to the article, which also cites statistics showing that Notre Dame seems to be better off than a group of “major Midwestern universities” (1 in 14 charged there).</p>
<p>Rape cases should be reported to the police, not to the college. The colleges are not capable of making such determinations as they do not have the experience. Many of them have set up systems to deal with reports with a lower burden of proof than the judicial system so that students who have been sexually harassed or raped can have the issue addressed as a college disciplinary problem rather than going through criminal court. </p>
<p>I believe that as a crime, rape is a serious one, and too serious for a college to to handle. It’s a felony, its an assault. If it’s a sexual harassment case, let the college handle it , but there should be some line where it has to be reported to the police. It’s difficult enough for those experienced in dealing with these cases and have handled hundreds of them to deal with date rape, acquaintance and friend rape cases. The truth of the matter, is that it almost always comes down to one word against another unless other physical signs of violence are there. We do have burden of proof issues.</p>
<p>Also, as far as the males go in such situations, it is too serious for a college system to make that kind of determination. I would sue a college that found any member of my family guilty, and I would do my dangest to have it moved to a criminal court. This is not for amateurs and, yes, the accused have their rights too.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, you’re completely correct. Rapists deserve years in prison, not whatever a college can do to them. The US court system has developed over 200 years to handle things like this; if another student shot me, I wouldn’t report it to the college, I’d report it to the police. And if I did just report it to the college and they didn’t take serious enough measures, then that would be my own fault, since they do not have the ability to properly handle such a serious crime.</p>
<p>Quote:
It’s no wonder the Justice Dept. is investigating. </p>
<p>I searched extensively; this appears to be a lie.</p>
<p>[Federal</a> Effort Targets Sexual Assaults At Colleges : NPR](<a href=“Federal Effort Targets Sexual Assaults At Colleges : NPR”>Federal Effort Targets Sexual Assaults At Colleges : NPR)</p>
<p>This isn’t just a problem at Notre Dame…this is a problem at college campuses nationwide. It is <em>NEVER</em> the victim’s fault, no matter WHAT. However, still make sure you encourage your daughter to make the best choices she possibly can - never go anywhere without someone (especially at night), don’t drink ANYTHING at parties that you didn’t pour yourself and DO NOT drink something you left alone, if she’s ever drunk make sure she’s not around people she doesn’t know and can get back home safe, etc. Unfortunately with rape cases, they are often hard to prove because of lack of evidence. It’s very sad. Just make sure your daughter knows how to keep herself safe. I know those things I listed sound obvious, and she probably knows them, but just reiterate them to her. This isn’t unique to Notre Dame and it’s a very sad state of affairs.</p>
<p>
Oh, you mean a thing announced at another college that has no mention of Notre Dame. Yeah, portraying a general statement about colleges to be about Notre Dame in particular is not the way to go.</p>
<p>DEd: You are right, the Justice Dept. inquiry is about all colleges, not just ND.
I should have made the point more clear: rape is an issue at many colleges. But the response of the administration is important. It can either be dismissive and appear to cover up or it can be supportive. The ND and local law enforcement reaction seems to be the first. If it is required that they report the crime allegation to the police, they need to do it.</p>
<p>Okay, I misunderstood you. I agree, ND should report this to the police. Ideally, I would like to see criminal cases handled by the legal system, then, after a conviction, have the student face action at the school. For a rape conviction, expulsion should be definite.</p>
<p>Just to be clear, the Seeberg case referenced above (in which the alleged victim committed suicide before any charges could be pressed) did not involve rape, but rather sexual battery. Under Indiana law, that’s “unwanted touching.” No physical evidence – so it would have been her word against his. Not the sort of scenario that generally leads to a conviction, even if the alleged assailant was a football player, and therefore presumed guilty by the media and many observers.</p>
<p>Has everyone forgotten the Duke Lacrosse case already?</p>
<p>I tend to favor the victims in such scenarios, so I won’t say that this guy didn’t do it, for he certainly could have (or not, we don’t know). The point is, to expel him on no evidence is irresponsible, and much more worthy of a scathing article.</p>
<p>Burden of proof is on the plaintiff, which is how it should be. Innocent until proven guilty, clearly there was not enough proof here. Its a shame if something did happen, but I’d rather see a guilty man walk free than an innocent one be locked up if we were to go by accusations alone.</p>