Why such harsh reactions to admission decisions?

Parents Forum
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<p>Just heard a war story from the admissions trenches. A student who is ranked third at our very competitive high school was waitlisted by the flagship. Given that about 100 students from our high school attend each year, and more than that are admitted, this was a pretty big shock for him. First, this school was known to admit based on stats alone, so it was a true, rock solid safety for the top student from a high school like ours. Second, I don’t recall the state schools ever wait-listing when my older kids were applying, so that is a new situation that is confusing people. No one knows how many they waitlist, or what are the chances of getting admitted from the waitlist. Third, showing love to this school was never necessary in the past. Since students around here live only 20 minutes away from campus, they often have countless friends and relatives who attend/attended/work there. Therefore, a student in our town might easily skip an open house at the flagship in favor of attending one at a school he knows less well, thereby inadvertently sending the message he is not interested. I don’t know the student in question, but his story seems to be a common one this year.</p>

<p>The outrage I’m hearing is stemming from the fact that the rules of the game have changed, no one knew they had changed, and now people are left with no admissions or only unaffordable ones. </p>

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<p>On the flip side of this thread, I would add that sportsmanship goes both ways. Those parents and students fortunate enough to receive acceptances to lottery/elite schools and who can afford to attend (either affording EFC or through FA), while understandably proud and excited, need to be sensitive to those suffering rejections. Such an acceptance doesn’t make your kid “better than mine,” nor does it make you a better parent. Be gracious in your victory. </p>

<p>Manners are so important and too often ignored.</p>

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<p>^^^^^
Is this one of the “popular” state schools? </p>

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<p>GFG - Our GC’s advise top students to apply to Penn State, Pitt, or Temple as safeties, with only a few exceptions among the crowd likely to garner multiple offers among schools with single digit admissions rates. (And even most of those would apply to one of those three.) These schools are aware that most students with top stats will be applying to some very competitive schools as well, and their MO in the past has been to admit students via rolling admissions whether or not they have shown interest, then bombard them with invitations to come visit. But, students are warned to apply very early in the cycle, no matter their stats, especially for Penn State - UP.</p>

<p>There is occasional surprise when a student is not admitted to an honors college at one of these schools, but I do think there would be some shock and outrage were one of these students to be turned down or wait listed at any of those three schools, provided they had not waited until the last minute to apply. This would signal an abrupt change in the rules of the game.</p>

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<p>GFG, that stinks. I hope the kid has other options he prefers (and can afford). Seems to me that it would behoove the GC to get on the horn with the admissions people there ASAP and find out what’s going on. Either for his sake, if he needs the admit, or for the sake of his or her future advisees.</p>

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<p>There is a very important factor in state flagship schools that some student who use it as a safety overlook, and that is the date of the application. When a program is filled at some of these schools, EInstein couldn’t get into a full Physics program. They draw the line and that’s it. ANd they do not wait for the missing piece of whatever in your application folder. It’s not all there, it’s put aside until the next batch is assessed and if the program is filled, then too bad. Also, if you don’t get into a super competitive program, the second and third choices might not be auto filled. You may end up in the back of the line behind those who made those choices first. Crazy, but some of the schools are auto programmed that way, because there are so many applications to process, not enough admissions folks to make holistic decisions. </p>

<p>I know a number of top engineering majors who got waylaid that way. They thought they were shoo ins and didn’t get those state apps in until later since they were more focused on the MIT essays and the common app stuff. Oops. ANd those spots were filled (and one was actually accepted to MIT and turned down by State U) by the time their apps were processed. Some State U programs are highly selective and limited, and the acceptance stats for the school overall do not reflect that. My son applied to a program at our state u that only accepted 10 students each year. TEN! My close friend’s son applied to a school with close to a 90% accept rate, was shocked to be turned down, but the specialty program there is the best in country, had a whole other set of criterion that he sloppily filled out, a special deadline he nearly missed, or maybe missed, and so he was rejected. Yeah, from a school that accepts nearly every warm body (and maybe even cold ones) that applied, he was rejected. Funny now, but not then. Nor was it for the guy I know who did end up at MIT. It was a very long several months before the accepts arrived after that state u rejection came rolling in around December or January. </p>

<p>Waitlists have become a necessity to schools these days to control enrollment. Kids these days are applying to a lot more schools. I see at my son’s school that ten is the average if you pull out the ED and EA first choice apps. With so many app that are phantom, since the student can only go to one school, waitlisting is needed or a school can truly be left holding the bag in terms of filling student spots THat the college aged population is going down also adds to this situation.</p>

<p>I’ve yet to hear about demonstrated interest being a factor at state unis. I’d ask about that one. My college kids and kids know were accepted to a number of state schools, showing zero interest other than submitting a free app of sorts. Really a number of schools, state and otherwise. But, yes, with computers in the picture, it is easier to track interest, in terms of website visits, questions, interactions, etc. and that is one thing a college could use to see if a student is interested in a school, or if it’s just an add-on to the list. It’s very difficult to visit, show love and interest to 10-20 schools, so the schools look for that factor. Again, I’ve not heard that about any state school in general, but for certain programs in a state school, that could be a factor, particularly the ones where the departments have a say in who gets accepted. Audition, portfolio and other such departments might well take that into consideration. </p>

<p>Other than the highly selective state unis, like UVA, UNC-CH, I don’t see a high stats student NOT getting accepted to the college of arts and sciences at their flagship universities. (And UVA specifically does not take interest into account, they do not track your visits there).</p>

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<p>When D1 was applying to our instate public, she was admitted very early on, but she didn’t hear anything about their honors program. We waited for a while before we made a phone to their admission office. They looked up her record and we were told that because her school didn’t rank the program didn’t automatically select her to be in their honors program. Her GC had to submit additional information for her to be admitted. </p>

<p>My guess is that more state schools are using software to help them select students, so it is worth while to follow up to make sure they have correct input for your student. It is also important for GCs to be in close contact with their students’ favorite colleges, so they would be aware of those schools’ changing admission policies. </p>

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<p>This flagship isn’t at the bottom of the barrel, but also isn’t UVA, UMich, UTexas Austin, or any of the CA state schools. I don’t know the specifics about this kid, but in the past no top student from our high school had a moment’s worry about not getting in there, even if they were applying to the more selective schools of engineering or pharmacy. </p>

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<p>The short answer to the original question is “human nature.” It is a coping mechanism to devalue what we don’t have, and maybe not such a bad one, but the way to do it is to have your snit in private and not guzzle wine made of sour grapes and smash the bottle on the institution gates. </p>

<p>We had a chilly start to the application season with an outright rejection to DD’s ED choice. Her stats were in their general range, she is kind, intellectually passionate, and easy on the eye (not that that matters, I suppose), and she interviewed on campus with the AD. I would not have been surprised by a deferral, knowing what things are like these days, but the outright rejection was pretty painful and set a pessimistic tone for the rest of her apps. But having read a lot here and some other places, I knew that equally accomplished kids with 98th-99th percentile scores and top grades were coping with multiple rejections, so I was able to prepare her a bit. She has her father’s very high EQ and moved on beautifully, but I still feel a twinge when I see that college’s logo.</p>

<p>We were so pessimistic after that, the happier outcomes (acceptances and lovely merit aid) have come as a good surprise. When she got a skinny envelope with a waitlist offer, we were all merry over it-- “How sweet! They kind of wanted me!” I’m just glad I read up here, because if I was still basing my reactions on when I was applying, I would have been puzzled & mortified by today’s process.</p>

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<p>It is less common for state universities to consider “level of applicant’s interest”, but not unknown.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=379”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=379&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=86”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=86&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=730”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=730&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=788”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=788&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Indiana University Bloomington Acceptance Rate | CollegeData”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=815&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=193”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=193&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Does the school use holistic reviews, or consider “level of applicant’s interest” and other subjectively determined criteria? Note that applying to more selective divisions or majors can be a big factor at many state universities.</p>

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<p>They claim to primarily consider academic record and test scores, but may also take into consideration “qualitative factors” like the personal essay, EC’s and socio-economic background. </p>

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<p>I can believe that UMich might look at interest factor, but am skeptical. Though they are impressively thorough in their reviews of applications, I do admit. Stoneybrook and UMAss? Maybe for some programs, but I know tons of kids that apply to that school and they are all accepted if their stats are there. I just looked at the scatter grams at our school’s Naviance, and it’s very much formulaic. Most of the kids do not bother to make personal treks to SUNYs and personal contact and the kids I know who were accepted there (some with some nice scholarships) did not bother to visit or do much either. IU, again, I know kids who didn’t bother much, weren’t top kids, and were accepted. I can’t say anything about UT for those they evaluate outside of their autoadmits. </p>

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<p>It seems rather odd that only UC Irvine would consider level of interest (per udbalum links). I wonder if this is a data error. Non of the other UC take this into consideration.</p>

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<p>I’m a mom whose darling has had some rejections and I"m also an academic and here’s my take on this whole phenomenon:</p>

<ol>
<li> Back in the Dark Ages when I went to college, there truly WAS a huge difference between tier 1 and tier 3 schools.<br>
A. The best schools had great libraries and those students had access to books and journals that others did not. Today, through the wonders of online research databases, there’s not a huge difference between things like access to journal articles.
B. I taught at a top-ranked liberal arts college awhile ago and found out that they frequently ran job searches for faculty and had faculty turn down the dream job at the small town in the middle of nowhere where my spouse will be miserable and never get a job – in favor of the tier 2 or 3 school in a larger metropolitan area where there were more options for social life and spouse jobs. So don’t think that tier 2 or 3 means you will be taught by second-rate faculty. WIth the incredible shortage of academic jobs at the moment, I can tell you that I teach at what is probably a tier 4 school and we have graduates of Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge teaching at our institution. That’s where the jobs were the year these people went on the job market.
C. Back in the Dark Ages when I went to school, only some schools had study abroad programs. If you didn’t go to a top school, you would NEVER get to study in Africa, for example. THese days, everyone travels and studies abroad.<br>
In other words, I don’t think that going to a lesser ranked university is a death sentence for a smart undergrad. They can in all likelihood still do undergraduate research with a great faculty member, read the same materials, study abroad, etc.</li>
</ol>

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<p>I think the poor reaction from parents stems from misconception that the college admission process will be the validation of their parenting skills. Too many parents view this process as a trophy reaping ceremony, where when their kid gets accepted to an Ivy or other such reputable school, they can bask in the comfort of knowing that they can say to all their co-workers and neighbors “Oh my son/daughter was accepted to ________ University.” Fortunately (as a high school senior) my parents are pretty happy with my just being accepted to a college and gave me a good “Oh well, on to the next one.” speech after I didn’t get in to Columbia.</p>

117

<p>Here’s the other part of my post:
This weekend I was at a swim meet for which I had driven 150 miles. THere were moms and dads there wearing spiritwear with the team name on it, and a embroidery which let everyone know that they were “Pat’s Dad” or
“Arabella’s mom”. Some of these people had FLOWN to the swim meet.</p>

<p>These were people who were heavily invested in being “Pat’s dad” and heavily financially invested in parenting. These are likely the people who tell you where “we” are applying to college so that “we” can get into graduate school. They may tell you about “our” SAT scores.</p>

<p>I found myself wondering what it would be like to be one of these people and this is what I have concluded:

  1. If every year I got a trip to a swim meet instead of an actual vacation with my spouse and children, I would be bitter if that sacrifice was not rewarded with college admission.<br>
  2. I would resent having spent all of my anniversaries, vacations, used up all my leave from job, etc. investing in my child rather than myself. Maybe I’m selfish, but I could see in a situation like that how parents might come to expect a payoff.<br>
    I think the solution is probably not to make huge sacrifices for your child which basically amount to a gamble – unless you truly don’t mind. Maybe there are people here who would rather see the inside of the YMCA in Tucson, AZ rather than going to a Broadway play, or to Europe, etc. but if you’re not one of those people, maybe you shouldn’t make that sacrifice. </p>

<p>I actually LOVED taking my daughters to swim meets. I love the other moms, the other girls on the team and it’s been sort of amazing to watch all these girls grow up and get ready to take off. IT’s an experience I woudn’t trade for the world – but it is possible to take those experiences too far and to resent them deeply, and to excuse them by hoping for a payoff that might never come.</p>

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<p>@Momzie stated, “unless you truly don’t mind. Maybe there are people here who would rather see the inside of the YMCA in Tucson, AZ rather than going to a Broadway play, or to Europe, etc.”</p>

<p>Yes, you have to know who you are, as a parent. I am one of those who did both. I truly do not mind any gamble (never saw anything as a sacrifice though), and I did all the other stuff too. </p>

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<p>My ideal is to take the kid to Europe and stay in hostels, go to NYC, stay with friends, and patronize TKTS. :)</p>

<p>Went to lots of games and track meets and recitals, but they were all local/regional, thankfully. It’s another level of commitment for those whose kids participate in national-level activities. </p>

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<p>I know a set of parents, both Harvard grads, who sat their high schoolers down last year and said in essence 'we went to Harvard, we loved it, we would love for you to have that opportunity if that is what you want- BUT, when we went, the acceptance rate was around 36%, now it’s under 10%- and even feeder schools don’t ‘feed’ the way they did back then. What counts for us is that you make the most of high school- because you only get this time once in life. So, we expect you to work hard, but we also want you to get really involved in the things that you find exciting. And if you do that we know it will add up to admission to a college that will be good enough to prepare you for whatever you want to do with your adult life- and that is good enough for us. </p>