<p>To be honest I'm not that impressed with the student body here at good ole' Carolina. I never was to begin with. But there is a great presence of intellectualism on this campus but you have to look for among all the muck. But within that group of intellectuals most of them seem to think like you--like they are in some way superior to those around them...like the world owes them something...if you were truly an intellectual superior then you would realize all the things wrong with your opening statement/question.</p>
<p>^^^ thanks for the candid appraisal, jazzmessenger</p>
<p>all you hardcore IS UNC lovers are turning me off. It's graet that you love your school, but why does it seem like you are looking for arguements with the OP? His question was a very legitimate one. Face it, the majority of OOS students are BETTER than IS. yes, it's true. many people who got in IS wouldn't have if they were OOS.</p>
<p>To answer the original question (as an OOS who applied) I agree with the fit issue. The other massive perk is the low cost.</p>
<p>JohnC613, </p>
<p>it is true that it is OOS admissions are more competitive than IS. However, as others have noted, there are plenty of IS students who are just as qualified as OOS students. To suggest otherwise is simply inaccurate and tends to perpetuate the myth that OOS students are in some way in a different class. It is just that, a myth.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone doubts there are IS students with as good or better credentials as OOS students, but it's useless trying to ignore the obvious disparities overall. If UNC had an open admissions policy, the vast majority of students would undoubtedly be OOS. That fact is no insult to IS students, it's just a fact. Except maybe athletes, some legacies, etc., OOS students are held to a much higher standard across the board, not some -- all.</p>
<p>Of course OOS students are statistically smarter, but here is something that I as an OOSer can vouch for that most people don't think about:</p>
<p>Many OOSers come in with a ton of AP credits. This leads them to surpass the 101s and typical freshmen classes and go straight into their major(s) and upperclassmen courses. This makes the schoolwork quite difficult (as my first semester GPA would reflect) while many ISers are able to take the more introductory courses that are geared toward freshmen. Of course, there are many, many ISers that face this same situation, but I think it's fair to say that it is faced more often by OOSers.</p>
<p>Does that make any sense?</p>
<p>With respect, I think to say that all OOS students are held to a higher standard "across the board" continues to imply that OOS students are somehow superior to IS students. Sure, OSS admissions is more competive. That is a function of the fact there there are more OOS applicants than IS for significantly fewer places. That, however, does not take away from the fact that there are a great many highly qualified and bright IS students who are every bit as intelligent as their OOS counterparts. In fact, the average SAT scores of IS and OSS students are not markedly different, and the number of IS students with SAT scores greater than 1400 is more than twice the numder of OOS with similar scores. My son, an OOS upperclassman, has often remarked how bright most of the students he knows are, both IS and OOS.</p>
<p>Don't harpoon the OP. He asked a legit question. I don't think it is an insult to IS because it is fact that in state stats are generally going to be not as competitive as oos due to the 18% limitation. Yes, there are intelligent highly competitive IS, but there are going to be likely fewer of them in comparison to oos because it is much easier for IS students with lower stats to get in. It doesn't make them inferior or anything.</p>
<p>Littlehamsterz, </p>
<p>if you mean that the percentage of OOS students having high SAT is greater than the percentage of IIS students having high SAT scores, you are correct. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if you mean that the actual number of OOS having high SAT scores is greater than the number of IIS students having high SAT scores, your statement is simply not supported by the statistics.</p>
<p>first one.</p>
<p>janieblue, i never said that the old OSS 30 percent proportion was a cap. that would be freakin insane, and uncharacteristic of the insular GA. that was the amount of OSS students at UNC BEFORE the cap. you are making ANNOYING assumptions about what i've written.</p>
<p>i think i used this tool to get that data a while back:
<a href="http://regweb.oit.unc.edu/regweb/enrolleot%5B/url%5D">http://regweb.oit.unc.edu/regweb/enrolleot</a>
but i'm not getting the same data i got back then for some reason. i could i've been looking at something else, like the transfer proportion, which is 30 percent in recent years. i'll keep looking for it, but i think i was actually wrong. sorry.</p>
<p>i do know what i'm talking about with taxpayer costs. look at the f'in revenue chart for unc, before you make assumptions. what i said makes sense. what applies to the UNC system does apply here, we are talking about UNC-CH only as i said earlier. jesus.</p>
<p>janieblue, do UVA and Mich have caps? i thought that they just used their high tuition rates to deter the OSS population from getting too big. i thought that their proportions had been determined by the market clearing price and quantity, for lack of a better terminology.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of course OOS students are statistically smarter . . .
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can only assume you are basing this statement on SAT scores? If so, you might want to take a look at the 2007 Fall profile (of enrolled students). I'll provide this link; I hope you can get into it. Office</a> of Institutional Research and Assessment - Admissions</p>
<p>If you can't access it, I'll just tell you what it says. (Again, this is for enrolled students, Fall 2007 freshman class). </p>
<p>The number of instate students who scored in the 1400's on the SATs: 506
The number of out of state students who scored in the 1400's: 193</p>
<p>The number of instate students who scored in the 1500's: 148
The number of out of state students who scored in the 1500's: 52</p>
<p>The number of instate students who scored a perfect 1600: 13
The number of out of state students who scored 1600: 1</p>
<p>So, the total number of instate students who scored in the 1400's and above for this freshman class: 672 The same total for out of state? 246</p>
<p>Tyr's assessment is correct. And this is just for the Fall 2007 class, but if you look at past freshmen classes, you'll see that the breakdown is fairly similar.</p>
<p>Further down the list:</p>
<p>Number of instate students for those who scored in the 1300's: 1001
Number of out of state students who scored in the 1300's: 174</p>
<p>1200 and below (instate): 1529
1200 and below (OOS): 219</p>
<p>Certainly, there will be broader range of SAT scores among the instate students, primarily because 82% are instate (competition is less fierce). As you can see, though, there are many more instate students with higher SAT scores than there are OOS total.</p>
<p>Also, just to add here, all of the top instate students (again, just looking at SAT scores) have also taken a slew of AP courses and also usually bypass a lot of the intro courses. This is not specific to OOS, by any means.</p>
<p>Finally, the total point difference between SAT scores for instate and out of state, in critical reading and math is 34 points. For writing, it's 28 points.</p>
<p>Let me also add that, though I have no arguments against the SAT (my own kid scored extremely high-- one sitting, no prep)-- I do believe UNC really does look at the whole applicant, and not just at one standardized test score. I think it would great if people could do that as well. </p>
<p>I know many people who are absolutely brilliant at what they do, yet never did very well on standardized tests. I would never view them as statistically less smart. I think you have to remember, too, that research has shown that SAT scores possibly predict how someone will perform in their first year of college, but that's it.</p>
<p>and also in the interest of aiding the IS side of the debate here, i don't think the original question takes into account OSS athletes and OSS legacies (who i'm pretty sure almost get IS consideration, correct me if i'm wrong). both of these groups represent a sizable amount of the total OSS population, and assumably have stats lower than the average OSS student, and perhaps the average IS student as well in some cases.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
do UVA and Mich have caps? i thought that they just used their high tuition rates to deter the OSS population from getting too big
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>Both have OOS admissions quotas. I believe Michigan's is around 33-35%, and UVA's is around 30%. This is according to both schools' admissions representatives.</p>
<p>armcp,</p>
<p>My understanding is that UVA does have a cap of 30% on OOS students. I do not know about Michigan.</p>
<p>I am not sure where you saw that UNC has ever had 30% OOS undergraduate students. Though I did not take the time to check all of them, the Fact Books available consistently reflect percentages of OSS underclass students in the 15-18% range since at least the mid-1980s. Could you have been looking at information in connection with graduate programs, where the percentage of OOS students is higher.</p>
<p>With respect to the tuition issue, as an OOS parent, I also have trouble finding any fairness in the current attitude of the Board of Trustees in setting tuition. At the same time, I find the recent tuition increases quite reasonable compared to the historical increases in costs imposed by other institution. The way I look at it is that for OOS students UNC is still a bargain when compared to private institutions. I suggest that you worry about the cost to you, and not what it may be to someone else, particularly when you knew, or at least should have known, the ground rules going in.</p>
<p>You seen to be having some difficulty adjusting to UNC. Having transferred schools (a number of years ago), I know the adjustment can be difficult and take time. Keep a positive attitude, keep working at it and try to stretch your comfort zone a little. You will find your place if you keep making the effort.</p>
<p>I'd just like to add that higher test scores (statistical intelligence) is not always indicative of an intelligent person. Knowing how to rock a test will not necessarily aid you in getting yourself out of a paper bag. Intelligence is something that often isn't very quantifiable...its street smarts, its knowing how to connect with people, its knowing who to trust and who not to trust, its all of the things that really get people from point a to point b in life. So by harping over SAT scores and what not...you're looking at something rather superficial....besides those tests are FAR from perfect when used across different socio-economic backgrounds so you really can only compare your own scores to people who had the same opportunities as you and I admit that NC's schools are not the best (well, some are pretty good) but in college when the playing field is somewhat leveled it is then that you will really be able to see who's intelligent and who can rock a test. There is WAY TOO much focus on stats on here...some people on here speak as if their test scores are the only thing they have going for them...no talk of goals, aspirations (well at least none beyond dreams of getting into the highest ranking schools [which may not end up being the best environment for you to study and grow in.]) </p>
<p>I remember when I was looking at colleges in my senior year of HS...I was obsessed with this site and I chose UNC based on a lot of the things that read about it on this very site and guess what...I'M TRANSFERRING OUT. Make your college decisions based on what you really believe is best for you...not on what will make you look better than your peers because in the end your relative value will mean nothing. The people on here often ask the wrong questions and then there are people divvying out knowledge in definitive terms about things they have no real substantive knowledge about. </p>
<p>Don't get caught up in the elitist hype...its garbage...and these SAT scores, y'know, the numbers that you judge your entire life worth against...I'd hate to say it but you're most likely going to completely forget the breakdown if not the actual score by the end of your first semester of college.</p>
<p>armcp: UVA's percentage of out of state students has been around 30% for as long as I can remember. I would guess this is a deliberate cap, but I'd have to do some research to determine if it's mandated by law. I don't know about Michigan, but I would assume they have a cap as well.</p>
<p>My point, really, is that in comparison to UNC, UVA receives relatively little of it's money from the State. That allows them leeway in taking in more out of state students. The NC taxpayers really do support the UNC system-- and happy to do so. For people who don't live in a state with a top notch public university, I would encourage them (it's never too late) to work on ensuring that their own system gets some attention and focus. As the economy worsens and all universities become increasingly more expensive, I think excellent state publics will become that much more valuable for their residents.</p>
<p>Getting the cap raised from 15% to 18% some 20+ years ago was a big fight. As long as the UNC system receives as much State support as they do, that won't change anytime soon. Also, even though there are 15 campuses, the flagship is really the one where most OOS want to come, less so with the other campuses, so it's not as much of an issue at the other campuses. </p>
<p>Also, I think it's useful to read UNC's mission statement, which is to first educate the children of its residents at as low a cost to them as is possible. (It's written more eloquently than that, but that's the gist.) All publics will be a better deal, financially, for their instate residents than for the out of state students. That's just a fact.</p>
<p>Edit: Just cross-posted with tyr, but yes-- I agree.</p>
<p>UVA does NOT have a cap for OOS--it has been as high as 33% or so, and is a major issue for IS Virginians (especially those in No. VA which has a larger and more competitive student population--therefore making it all the more difficult to get in as compared to those from the rural areas in the state--and I'm sure that will open up another argument!) </p>
<p>The OOS athletes are included in the UNC-CH cap of 18%, and thus their scores would almost certainly be the ones that fall below the other OOS admitted students--just an educated guess, and by no means trying to detract from their contribution to the UNC community. </p>
<p>S2 has been accepted OOS, and it is on his final list of 3. The other 2 schools have offered excellent honors programs, and one is offering substantial money. He is not happy that UNC has not offered honors, and we are not happy that the tuition increases for next year (from what I've read) will be paid only by OOS students. He is still revisiting schools, so we'll see what the decision is at the end of April.</p>
<p>I appreciate the candid remarks posted here.</p>
<p>Sure, in raw numbers there are more IS students with higher scores etc., but with a 82/18 split, that's already a given, right? Percentage wise, however, there's no real comparison. Why does saying the latter imply anything negative about IS students? It's not like it's some hidden secret that the two groups have different admissions standards applied to them-- IS students do get sort of an AA advantage as compared to OOS. Their primary obligation is to IS not OOS; it's part of UNC's mission. Nothing wrong with that in my book for a publicly supported institution. However, as I said earlier, anyone who does have a problem with such bias would be better off not applying in my opinion. </p>
<p>Btw, I'm not referencing anything to do with actual intelligence, just admissions standards. I harbor absolutely no sentiment that IS students are inferior, just that there exists a lower bar to admittance, which can at times be very significant. Obviously, how they perform once they get in is a different matter altogether.</p>
<p>jazz, i hate to say it, but as inaccurate a measure of intelligence SAT scores may be, they do have a certain validity. in order to process so many applicants, each applicant must be somehow quantified. it is undeniable that the average kid at harvard is smarter than the average kid at UNC. how would you compare the two? the only objective thing one could see on paper would be an SAT score. sure, there are exceptions; there always are.</p>
<p>this applies to the rest of what has been posted on this board too. SAT score samples from a student body tell you something about that student body. OOS kids, on average, are smarter than IS kids. denying that on the basis that SAT scores are bad blah blah is dismissing the factual significance of a score discrepancy.</p>
<p>no one is saying that all OOS kids are more qualified. no one is saying there is a larger number of qualified OOS kids than IS kids.</p>
<p>and jazz this post wasn't targeted at you or anyone. just making a point. also, i agree with the rest of his post.</p>
<p>edit: flvadad good points</p>