Why would those of us good enough to get into UNC OOS choose UNC?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
81

<p>"Also, I think it's useful to read UNC's mission statement, which is to first educate the children of its residents at as low a cost to them as is possible."</p>

<p>But my public works so much different than that janieblue. Besides not offering as much opportunities as a UNC degree, it actively recruits OSS students and gives them merit awards at a higher rate than IS students. there is no cap. in order to improve it's reputation it stays very porous for OSS students, which is the opposite of the ideal state university mission.</p>

<p>the way the US public university system is set up is unfair. it does not allow the same opportunities for all its citizens. some have the options of schools like Berkeley at a cheap price while others only have the option of much less prestigious state school if they want to pay a comparable price. even the EU does not have this and its composed of different countries, not just states. EU citizens can go to any school in the EU, and everyone who's from the EU pays the same rate. why can't the US do this????????? i know why, but why can't we change the way the system is set up.</p>

82

<p>y2bbb...i hear you man but the way the kids are talking on here you'd think that the SAT was the end-all in any discussion in which intelligence is questioned. The SAT is a test, you have to have a certain level of aptitude to do well but your score doesn't have to correlate with your performance in high school and it certainly doesn't give a clear prediction of your performance in college. I didn't get offended at all man by your message because in a way you're absolutely right...but the kids on here really need some sort of reality check because life isn't only about grades and test scores. Live a little...</p>

<p>the only thing that I don't agree with, in hindsight, was how you stated that OOS kids are "smarter" than IS kids. I'm not saying that isn't necessarily true but given the tools used to reach that conclusion (test scores and the like) the only conclusion that could accurately be drawn is the OOS tend to score higher on these standardized tests. What exactly does it mean to be smart or intelligent or intellectual or whatever else...hell, my philosophy professor has spent the last 3 classes debating with us about the true nature of knowledge. We rank ourselves in this society by drawing similar false conclusions from data that speaks to something else (say deriving levels of intelligence from a test that doesn't necessarily measure intelligence)...</p>

<p>I'm getting WAY OFF TOPIC but it seems as though intelligence is something at least somewhat intrinsic and that whether or not you have a sizeable vocabulary or whether you can do complicated math problems doesn't matter ultimately because those may simply not be your fields of interest or intellectual prowess. BUT, to the credit of this board and all of its participants, in this society these things do matter so...</p>

<p>whatever...</p>

83

<p>Hi folks. I can't resist this one. The SAT was developed initially as a first cousin to the old Army tests in order to determine who was the young person who might have tremendous undeveloped potential as well as a means of sorting through the growing number of college applicants (it really took off in use after WWII).</p>

<p>During the last 10 years or so, the test was renamed (I don't have the time to cut and paste internet articles so bear with me, I am an ABD in psychology and have taken several assessment courses so am somewhat qualified in this area) to reflect that the test no longer was an aptitude but an achievement test. This came about as a result of the fact that, in the words of one of my former professors, it was a better measure of the number of square feet in the applicant's house (family income) than an assessment of intellect. </p>

<p>Simply put, the SAT can be prepped for extensively (taking the Kaplan or Princeton review is a rite of passage in my community among the wealthy) with impressive results. Higher income students are exposed to more "cultural capital" and thus have the opportunity to amass large vocabularies through enrichment opportunities, well-educated families and better schools. A case that supports this is the fact that the PSAT merit semi-finalist cutoffs were highest in areas where there was the greatest concentration of wealth and outstanding boarding schools.</p>

<p>Obviously a state school is going to serve all of its citizens and, that is, and should be the mission of UNC. When individuals on CC complain about their high SAT scores not getting them in to a particular school, I assume that they are not aware of the fact that family education and the economic resources available to an applicant are carefully looked at. The UNC application asks where parents attended not only college but grad schools as well. A student whose parents are well-educated and who attended a competitive high school has no reason (aside from learning issues and emotional concerns) not to do well. The student with the 4.0 from Tinytown Rural High School but only managed a 1900 on the SAT is undeveloped potential. I had the pleasure of rooming with such an individual at UNC many years ago. She now has a PhD, teaches at a respected private college and, in my estimation has a fantastic mind. Her personal assessment is more modest than my assessment of her; "I am a NASCAR loving trailer park girl from **** county". Indeed she was.</p>

84

<p>Last point and I'll go away. Why would you choose UNC over an Ivy? There is more diversity (both economic and cultural), it is easier to feel comfortable with less material means there and one can be exposed to outstanding minds and courses at a fraction of the cost.</p>

85

<p>For those of you that are willing to take the heat to give honest opinions and evaluations, I am so grateful. I am insisting that my kid read this thread. So sure that this is the only school that I have been very worried that there is way too much hype about UNC and not enough real, honest opinions. Jazzmessenger, you have given my family so much to talk about. Finally, someone gives the other side and makes sense. THAT IS A GOOD THING. No school is perfect and many here have a hard time acknowledging that. This is my child's first choice and was deferred. This is my child's parents third choice. Obviously, the kid makes the final decision but with 45 years of experience and a phd, must say that even though many thing the tuition is reasonable, would rather spend the money on a school that gives the exact same criteria to every student (of course, some don't have this applied to them since they are legacy, ect). </p>

<p>IT REALLY IS ABOUT THE STUDENT BODY BEING UNBALANCED
If there are 82% from NC and admitted with lower SATS (on average meaning some are much lower than oos) and 18% with very high SATS, aren't the oos kids not only bored in some of the classes? and paying a lot more to go to school with kids that pay less and are more average? It is not a put dow, it is just a true fact. ASK UNC admissions cause they admit it. is acceptance is easier at unc than many other state schools in other regions.</p>

86

<p>Hmm apparently I was ignored so I'll repeat this again.</p>

<p>OOS students are never bored. I do not know a single UNC student, in state or out of state, that finds their classes easy. OOSers typically come in with more AP credits and therefore skip many of the intro classes, thus start out in higher level classes that are by no means "easy".</p>

87

<p>heather - I think you're only being ignored by those who don't want to hear what you're saying. </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Please don't assume that because the OOS students make up 18% of the class that they alone constitute the top 18% of the class. </p>

<p>If you read post #72 in this thread, you'll see that there are in fact many more IS high SAT scorers than there are OOS. Those IS students may not have had to clear as high a bar as OOS students did to get in, but those IS students cleared it by a mile -- and there are a lot of them there. The OOS students may be clustered towards the top of the class, but there are a lot of IS students right there with them. </p>

<p>With regard to heather's comments about not being bored, that makes a lot of sense when you consider how many top students there are -- both IS and OOS.</p>

88

<p>
[quote]
. . . and 18% with very high SATS, aren't the oos kids not only bored in some of the classes? and paying a lot more to go to school with kids that pay less and are more average?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, I'm dumbfounded that people are basing all this "intelligence" on one standardized test score. I find this so disturbing, on many levels.</p>

<p>Following up on my earlier post-- the total number of instate students (Fall 2007 enrolled freshman class) who scored in the 1300's to 1600's is 1,668 students. The total number of OOS who scored in the 1300's to 1600's is 420. (It would appear that ~200 out of state students actually scored below 1300). </p>

<p>This means that there are 4 times as many instate students with SAT scores in this range -- as there are total OOS students who scored in this range. That's over 2,000 total students in this freshman class alone. (Enrolled freshman classes are usually somewhere around 3500-3700.) Additionally, one can often find himself in mixed age classes. </p>

<p>I did comment on heathergee's point earlier, but I'll say it one more time. A large majority (probably that 1,668 number, at least) of instate students who scored relatively high on the SAT, also took a slew of AP courses, or were enrolled in IB. They were able to start out in higher level courses as well. In addition, some intro level courses can be bypassed with high SAT scores. </p>

<p>From what I have heard and seen, UNC courses are challenging-- some more than others, depending on the major and, obviously, if you choose to challenge yourself.</p>

<p>Let me add, too, that students can score lower than 1300 on the SAT, and still be pretty smart. ;) JazzMessenger and hornet made some excellent points about the SAT. This is one standardized test. To believe that this tells the whole story about a person's innate intelligence and potential contributions to a campus community, academic or otherwise, or that your student might be bored in a class, sitting next to someone who scored 20 or 50 points below him/her on a standardized test, is really mind-boggling to me.</p>

<p>I actually don't believe that students in classes discuss their SAT scores with one another. If they do, then there's definitely a problem.</p>

<p>Finally, it's not that out-of-state students are "held to a higher standard," it's that the competition is very fierce, so Admissions can afford to skim from the top. When you have ~11,000 students competing for ~670 spots, why not take the very best from that group? </p>

<p>Even though we have 15 other campuses, many of which have offerings and specific strengths that the flagship doesn't, you would be surprised by how many North Carolinians are upset that their kid can't get into the flagship anymore. The competition for instate students has become progressively more difficult as well, as more and more of the top students apply and decide to enroll. I do not believe that UNC has a county quota, but I do believe it's important to reach out across NC (even to small rural areas) to ensure that all types of students are considered for their flagship school. </p>

<p>Finally, for anyone who applies from out-of-state, you presumably know-- going in-- that you will be paying more than your instate counterparts. If this is something that grates on you, even before you attend, then that's a serious and valid consideration. Private universities charge everyone the same amount; no doubt there will be students-- even at privates-- who did not do well on the SAT, and who may have scored as much as 100 points lower than your kid. One thing is certain, though, you will all be paying the same amount of tuition. If that's important to you, it's good you know it now.</p>

<p>Good luck to all.</p>

89

<p>One more statement- just to make this a little clearer.</p>

<p>Out of 670 OOS students in the Fall 2007 enrolled freshmen class, one-third (1/3) scored in the 1200's and lower on the SAT.</p>

90

<p>janieblue~I am guessing that many of those OOS who scored below 1300 are athletes--they have to be included in the 18% OOS cap. They certainly contribute (as I said before) to the whole community, but they are held to a different score/gpa standard than the other OOS students who have applied.</p>

91

<p>i have to run to class but i feel like contributing this: many of the IS students at UNC come from rural areas with possibly underfunded public school systems. A person's intelligence can not and should not be determined by tests taken by students from both Podunk County HS with one AP course and no PSAT preparation programs and Richville County HS with every AP course offered and both PSAT and SAT prep courses. Some people on here are rather jaded by what they feel to be the norm but some of you all have to realize that these opportunities that you feel are universal are not distributed equitably across the socio-economic board. </p>

<p>I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million times more...You should seriously think of what you want to take from college and THEN decide which college you want to attend. Not the other way around...UNC, as well as the Ivies and such, have AMAZING opportunities and RIDICULOUS resources but college really is what you make it. Put your own well-being before the potential prestige of the university of your choice. And, I hate to say it considering that I've already incurred about 20 grand in debt, but college is no longer a sure-fire thing...I know a guy who graduated last year with a degree in Economics and a minor in Business that still has yet to land a job. BUT by the same token I know a guy who (no this is not a joke) majored in Business and minored in Economics who thought he had landed his dream job on Wall Street making around $200,000 a year coming straight out of school...but guess what, HE HATES HIS JOB and he says he has all this money but no leisure time to do anything with it. </p>

<p>Along the lines of advice I would say you should talk to an informed, yet impartial, person about these decisions if you feel as though you cannot make the decision alone. Some HS college counselors are just as blinded by prestige and their own elitist beliefs as many of the students on this board. Stop comparing yourselves to each other and think about what YOU want from college, and life overall. </p>

<p>And for a little added randomness, I was watching Waking Life (which is an awesome movie) and there is this scene at the very beginning in which the main character catches a ride in a suspicious looking boat-car from a guy that talks about freedom and personal choice. Then the guy is let off at a random stop and when he asks the driver where this stop is the driver responds with something along the lines, "I don't know either kid, but it will determine the rest of your life." Stats and HS class rank are all good and dandy but they probably won't follow you for the rest of your life because chances are if you are on this forum then you are most likely headed to college...but where you go to school and what you do while in school will make all the difference in the world if you let it...so make a wise and informed decision. Not one based on false beliefs and naivety.</p>

92

<p>
[quote]
I am guessing that many of those OOS who scored below 1300 are athletes--they have to be included in the 18% OOS cap.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think the scholarship ones are not included in the OOS cap, but I'm not sure how many OOS athletes are on scholarship.</p>

93

<p>And one more thing...you may be (read: feel) superior to your peers now but college is a whole different ball game. I've seen several students who were at the top of their class at the respective high schools but once in college seem to have developed an inferiority complex. Know yourself and stop talking about being surrounded by people of lesser intellect than yourself because you may not know what you are really getting into.</p>

94

<p>irishforever: If you read my entire post, you will see that I agree about how students can contribute positively to a campus community, regardless of SAT score. </p>

<p>Whether 1/3 of those OOS students who score lower on the SAT are athletes or not, is really neither here nor there. Like it or not, they represent fully one third of the OOS students in that freshman class. </p>

<p>My point was really to answer some of the statements made in earlier posts about the perceived intelligence level or academic quality of instate students at UNC (presumably based on one standardized test score). </p>

<p>Seriously-- if we're just looking at SAT scores here, does anyone truly believe that ~420 OOS students (those who scored in the 1300's and above) are the ones raising the academic level of the 2007 freshman class, and that these students would be bored in classes, unless they're all taking classes with each other?</p>

<p>I honestly don't know how to spell it out any clearer. I provided the facts with real numbers. </p>

<p>To be among ~11,000 applicants for a very small number of spots is competitive, no doubt about it. If you get rejected, move on. If you get deferred, you presumably have other options. Weigh them, and make your decisions based on what fits you (financial and otherwise) in the spring. Same goes if you're accepted. I think it's fair enough to say, though, that the instate students won't be dragging anybody down academically. ;)</p>

<p>Edit: Just saw JazzMessenger's most recent posts-- all excellent and valid points.</p>

95

<p>I don't want to get into the whole argument going on here, but a few random tangents:</p>

<p>-- UNC-Chapel Hill gets approximately the same amount of money from the Federal government as it does from the state of North Carolina</p>

<p>-- Full scholarship recipients (Robertsons, Moreheads, etc.) from OOS are, to my understanding, not only charged IS tuition but are considered IS for quota purposes - and possibly SAT breakdowns. I do not believe that this applies to athletic scholarships, but it may.</p>

<p>That said, I do think it is patently unfair to see all in-state students (or all athletes, for that matter) as dumb, uninteresting, or uninterested in academics. Most of the brightest people I know here are from NC. As others have said, there is a wider spread of academic strength among in-state students, but there are a huge number at the very top.</p>

<p>Yet I do think that the 18% cap deprives Carolina of very qualified students who would love to attend. I think that the cap should perhaps be lowered, to say 15%, but be applied to the UNC system as a whole instead of any one campus.</p>

<p>But back to the original question in this thread - why choose UNC? </p>

<p>Various possible reasons as compared to other academically well-regarded research universities:</p>

<ol>
<li>Atmosphere - intelligent, passionate, yet laid-back and just generally happy people</li>
<li>Cost / Value for $</li>
<li>Great college town</li>
<li>Weather</li>
</ol>

96

<p>Thought-Provoking: You are correct that OOS students awarded merit and athletic scholarships are considered in-state (for tuition purposes only). However, I'm not sure that the SAT chart (breakdown) on the above link separates them out this way, just looking at the numbers/percentages (not 100% sure). You are correct, though, that one of reasons that this NC legislation was passed was a back-door way of raising that cap on the 18% OOS.</p>

<p>There was an article written in the DTH this past August, which talked about this scholarship provision, and UNC-CH was cited as currently having 76 OOS on athletic scholarships, and 116 OOS on academic merit scholarships (192 total). I don't <em>think</em> that's just for the freshman class, though-- but total number.</p>

<p>As an aside, I also think UNC's study abroad program is outstanding; no one ever mentions that, but it's very strong, with lots of opportunities to study in a wide variety of places. UNC, unlike many schools, encourages (makes it easier) for students to go on study abroad and still graduate in 4 years.</p>

97

<p>2007MOM, </p>

<p>Your last paragraph in Post No. 85 is entirely inconsistent with the heading of your post. In the final analysis, you do, in fact, seem concerned with “who is smarter”.</p>

<p>Reading between the lines, it appears to me that you have made up your mind that UNC is not the place for your child. You seem to welcome the posts of anyone who is a critical, and at the same time ignore valuable positive information which may be inconsistent with your apparent belief that OOS students are somehow superior. Based on a couple of your comments, it is hard not to believe that you are looking for ammunition to help convince your son to chose one of the school’s you prefer. </p>

<p>I don’t remember any post that even asserted that UNC was the best school around or, in fact, that it is necessarily the best school for anyone. There are obviously those who are not happy at UNC, just as there are those at any school you can name who will not be happy with their choice. Heck, not everyone at HYPS is in a state of nirvana. The reasons for dissatisfaction are as varied as the people themselves and can be highly dependent on particular circumstances over which the school may have little or no influence or control. </p>

<p>As might reasonably be expected on a UNC board, most of the responses regarding UNC are positive. Most are, in fact, consistent with what my son relates when we get around to discussing such things. An OOS student, now an upperclassman, he has had a very positive experience and has absolutely no regrets with his decision to attend UNC rather than one of the other schools where he was accepted. Notwithstanding that he had strong numbers, even for an OOS student, he has had nothing but good things to say about most of the students, both IS and OOS (as might be expected, there are some notable individual exceptions). He generally characterizes those he knows as being very bright and talented. While academically successful, he has had to be diligent and study hard to attain the grades he wanted to achieve, and has never indicated that he was bored or lacked anything to do; quite the contrary. He has made many friends, both IS and OOS, has an active social life and is an active participant in campus organizations that are meaningful to him. As a parent, I certainly cannot complain about the academic results and his personal experience as he has described it to me. He chose UNC despite my preference toward other schools. The way it has turned out, I suspect he made a better decision for himself than if I had made it for him.</p>

<p>Notwithstanding the experience of others, including my son, there certainly may be legitimate reasons for your child to attend a school other than UNC, which certainly is not the perfect school for everyone. Perhaps the size is a problem. While relatively small for a public university, UNC is still larger than most private schools. While the size affords a variety of opportunities and resources that a smaller school may be unable to match, it also means that the student may have to be proactive in seeking out those opportunities and resources. Students may also have to take more of the initiative in developing relationships with professors than may be the case at some smaller institutions, though my son has had dinner at professors’ houses on multiple occasions. Given the size and many opportunities, it may also take a little more time and effort for a student to find his or her niche within the campus community. If the student is, for whatever reason, not comfortable with meeting and befriending new people or in taking the initiative to seek out and take advantage of the opportunities that are available, he or she is likely to feel unhappy, alone and out of place. UNC is probably not the place for that student, as I understand that there is not much coddling or handholding. In my opinion, this kind of environment can encourage a lot of personal development and growth, if the student is mature enough to handle the responsibility. Any of the students here are invited to correct this if any of these thoughts are in error, as they are impressions formed from discussions with my son and not based on any personal experience on my part.</p>

<p>It is true that UNC students represent a somewhat broader spectrum of academic ability than some of the very competitive private schools, at least if you measure academic ability by SAT scores (which is another issue altogether; see Jazzmaster’s excellent comments). If you are offended by the notion of your child going to school with students that predominately are within the top 20% of students in the country (at least by SAT standards), but some of which may be “more average” than your child, then by all means you should look elsewhere. Likewise, if you willing to forego an excellent educational opportunity for your child at UNC (or for that matter any selective public university where your child is an OSS student) and spend considerably more for an education at another school because your are offended by the notion of paying more tuition for your child than the parent of a “more average” IS student, UNC is not the place for you. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and preferences, no matter how misguided they may seem to others.</p>

<p>If the bottom line is that you are looking for a school where all the students are uniformly talented academically and your child will not have to deal with “more average” students, you will be on a fool’s errand. All schools have students with a range of academic abilities, even the most competitive ones.</p>

98

<p>yes, unc is a great school and yes, i have mixed feeling about my child going there. but the final decision is not made by me and i listen to most of the kids that post here and some of the adults and think that in some ways they a making decisions based on what kids in hs say. as for smarter, whether most of you here want to believe it or not, the college community has made the sat score the basis for judging 'smarter". </p>

<p>we also received a letter in yesterday's mail. it went to the wrong address and i am glad my neighbor was nice enough to bring it to us. so my child will now be able to decide between unc and probably an ivy. but tyr, you are very judgemental. yes, unc gets mostly positive posts but you are not looking at it in an unbiased way. for those of us that don't know if this is "the" school, it is good to hear negative posts. when it is all positive it is hard to make an informed decision. </p>

<p>I jump on the negative because if you are only weighing the positive, you are not really looking at the whole picture. as for smarter, it only gets you into the school, it does not makes you more successful. and that is why it is a shame that a few scores determine so much for the kids today. it would be so much more productive to let others give their opinions and ask their questions without the rude comments afterwards, we are all looking for the same thing. insight into a school and the chance to vent to others and it is not unnecessary to make to criticize when someone else does not agree with you.</p>

99

<p>I love study hall. I get to read these silly posts that eveyone makes and laugh at all of the people that think they know everything.</p>

<p>I am in my second year of college. I have a b that is going through all of this. It is ok if you are worried that you will make the wrong decision. Everyone worries about it all. It seems like a lot of parents try to make the decision for their kids and I respect that you want to let you kid decide and hope he or she is well informed. But in the end, college is college to some degree. I have friends at many schools all over the country and I only know one that is no satisfied with her choice. And I think that is more to do with here boyfriend being at another school.</p>

<p>I don't think anyone is really trying to be rude. Just remember that kids that post here are 17 and 18 and they are not always respectful of others opinions.</p>

100

<p>Must have made your day! ;)</p>