<p>That was actually another question of mine. I am hesitant to apply early decision anywhere because I was thinking that, if you are forced to go there if you’re accepted, couldn’t they just not offer you any aid? What I’m hearing you say, LACalum, is that they would still give the same aid either way. Just double checking that.</p>
<p>P.S. Are there any statistics on that, like how much aid regular decision applicants get compared to ED applicants?</p>
<p>From the common app ED agreement:
<a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/DownloadForms.aspx[/url]”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/DownloadForms.aspx</a></p>
<p>No common app school can or will force you to attend if their financial aid offer is insufficient, and the student/family decides if the aid is sufficient, not the school.</p>
<p>If you have that one dream school and will attend if there is any financial way to make it happen, by all means apply ED. Don’t apply ED if you want to compare FA offers.</p>
<p>Oh, ok. I had no idea about that; it’s very reassuring though.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I pulled up this thread because my son is planning on applying ED to Carleton. I guess my questions are around how the above actually plays out. How does Carleton select a class on a need-blind basis before considering their financial budget? Do they really and truly ignore who checks the box on ‘need financial assistance’ on the common application when choosing ED candidates or do they evaluate and defer applicants based on a combination of how strong they appear with their ability to pay? If the answer is that they are truly need-blind while selecting ED applicants, does that mean that regular applicants face more scrutiny as to their ability to pay then ED applicants? </p>
<p>My son really has his heart set on Carleton, so it is important to us that we don’t put him at risk simply because we don’t know the reality of Carleton’s process. Thanks for any info.</p>
<p>ctyankee, you can make yourself crazy trying to read the minds of admissions staff. If your son has his heart set on Carleton, then just make sure Carleton has every opportunity to get to know him and his special qualities and the reasons he’s a good fit for Carleton (and Carleton for him). Visit, interview, meet with a Carleton alum in your area. </p>
<p>Carleton practices need-blind admission to the utmost extent that they can afford to do so. An overwhelming majority of the class are admitted on a need-blind basis.</p>
<p>ctyankee:</p>
<ol>
<li>You’re right to be concerned. But the reality is that no college is truly need blind, especially in the midst of this recession. Much has been written about this. This is from TheIvyCoach.com April 2009 newsletter:</li>
</ol>
<p>“What need-blind admissions actually means is that a type of firewall exists between admissions and the financial aid office through which information does not flow. Yet, in the real world of college admissions, there are other ways that a need-blind college can figure out if the applicant will need aid. On every application there are questions that the student must answer that reveals the family’s economic circumstances. When both parents are ivy league graduates, and one is a partner in a white-shoe law firm, while the other is a partner in a top consulting firm, the sibling is currently attending a prestigious private university, and the high school is located in an affluent zip code, it is not difficult to conclude that if admitted, this applicant will be a “full-pay.” Add to this mix, a student who writes about his summer community service work in Guatemala that cost his family eight thousand dollars, it becomes even more obvious that the family can afford the tuition, room and board at the college to which he/she applied.”</p>
<p>I would also “add to the mix” that many colleges increased their wait lists last year. While there were many reasons for this, consider that the need blind policy only applies to first round acceptances for entering freshmen. Freshman admitted off the wait list along with all transfer students, are admitted NEED AWARE. Contrast this to Carleton, which accepted no one off last year’s wait list and only very small numbers of transfers.</p>
<ol>
<li>Specifically with regard to Carleton’s own policy, below you can read the departing president’s own words in a recent interview in which he candidly answers your question:
[Oden</a> | Carleton Progressive](<a href=“http://carletonprogressive.com/?p=20]Oden”>http://carletonprogressive.com/?p=20)</li>
</ol>
<p>"PF (Interviewer): So then is it truly need-blind?</p>
<p>RO (President Robert Oden): No, since 1993 it has not been need-blind. So there is a budget that’s based on last on last year’s budget and we increase it by as much as we can. So, for example, from last year to this year, though every other budget line at the college was flat, we increased financial aid just short of 7 percent. You should talk to Paul Thibodeau, the Dean of Admissions, who’s the expert at this, but to really be able to afford to be need-blind and insure that for the future, we would probably need an endowment of two or three times ours. In the early 1990s, there was a long discussion among faculty, students, and staff and they decided that the only sustainable thing to do was to continue to base all aid on need, to continue to meet the full demonstrated need of every admitted student, but to have an overall limit, and above that, to go to need-sensitive if you need to. Now, in fact, two years ago we were need-blind; we went zero percent need-sensitive. This last year it was about 5 percent. So it’s very little need-sensitive, but absent an extraordinary and wonderfully generous gift, we’re not going to do that. Now, I’ve said, along with diversity as my number one priority, there’s nothing on the face of the earth for Carleton I would rather do than stand on the steps of Laird and scream out into the Bald Spot, “We are now need-blind!” It’s just exceptionally expensive."</p>
<ol>
<li> Last comment: Carleton has weathered the past year’s financial storm much better than most colleges. They continue to guarantee to meet 100% of student financial need and aid packages are very generous. As you can see in President Oden’s remarks, FA overall was increased by 7% this past year. The school is actually hiring several new faculty for this coming fall, something virtually unheard of at any other elite LAC or university.</li>
</ol>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>There are just a few schools that say they are need-blind; it would take someone on the inside to know if they are lying. </p>
<p>It’s the adcom’s job to pick the students a need-aware school wants the most, and the FA dept’s job so say how many needy kids the school can afford.</p>
<p>Think of it this way for need-aware schools: The adcom picks need-blind and sends the picks to the FA office; when FA budget is depleted the FA office tells the adcom to stop picking needy kids.</p>
<p>The elites are not identified, but there are 1756 open jobs today at LACs on this one site:
[Faculty</a> Positions - HigherEdJobs.com](<a href=“Faculty Jobs - HigherEdJobs”>Faculty Jobs - HigherEdJobs)</p>
<p>Vossron:</p>
<p>Those 1,756 openings are not only at LACs. They’re all open positions at all UNIVERSITIES, COMMUNITY COLLEGES and LACs combined in the US in the Liberal Arts. Unfortunately, most of these positions you can see posted are for miserably paid adjuncts, poorly paid part-timers or “no long-term prospects” non-tenure track jobs. Very few are at elites.</p>
<p>This year is probably the worst in decades for any freshly minted PhD/post doc to be out hunting for that academic holiest of holy grails, the tenure track. Carleton’s new hires represent a true expansion (albeit modest) of the size of the faculty - a very rare happening these days.</p>
<p>Yes, thanks, Liberal Arts does not equal LACs; I was sloppy.</p>
<p>Few of those jobs are at elites; I looked around a tiny bit:</p>
<p>Bowdoin - 9
Carleton - 12
Davidson - 7
Grinnell - 5
Oberlin - 7
Pomona - 7
Reed - 6
Swarthmore - 6</p>
<p>Only 59 openings at these eight schools; not a good time to look for a job. :(</p>
<p>protestthehero91 – 1. You look like a very strong candidate to me. 2. It is VERY important that you arrange for an interview. If your family doesn’t have the resources to get you to campus, then call and arrange for an alumni interview in your area. My daughter did this two years ago. We had to drive quite a distance to get to the interview, but it went exceptionally well, and helped convince my D to attend Carleton. I posted at the time, and still firmly believe, that selective colleges use the interview process as a filter to show them who is really interested in attending (the “show me the love” filter, if you will). She applied to 11 schools, was accepted at 7, and interviewed with all 7. At 4 she was waitlisted, and at 3 of the 4 never interviewed (Princeton was the only college that she interviewed with that waitlisted her). Yes, this is anecdotal, but again, why take the risk of not interviewing if Carleton really is your first choice? 3. It is NEVER a good idea to apply to a single school if you have financial need. Some have argued that it isn’t a good idea to apply to a single school even if financial aid isn’t a concern. 4. There isn’t much you can do about FA until you have applied and been accepted. Be honest, give schools as accurate a picture as you can, and be sure to take advantage of schools that allow you to submit additional information beyond that included on the FA forms. Once you have been accepted, you can further negotiate FA if the offer is so disappointing that you might not be able to attend.</p>
<p>In other words, don’t try to second guess outcomes. Apply to a half dozen or so colleges, and yes, like other posters have indicated, I would include at least a few colleges that are known for being generous, need blind, and meet 100 percent of need. Only apply to colleges that you might really want to attend. Put passion and energy into each application. Interview at all colleges that you apply to, even if it is through the alumni network. AND THEN ENJOY YOUR SENIOR YEAR IN H.S. There are no guarantees (which is why you apply to several schools), but I personally think that you will be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.</p>
<p>Check this out: [Carleton</a> College: Student Financial Services: Aid Awarded to 2009-2010 New Students](<a href=“http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/sfs/prospective/aid_chart/]Carleton”>http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/sfs/prospective/aid_chart/)</p>
<p>Not only does it show the amount of aid an applicant can expect, but it also breaks down the 2013 class by income bracket (no way of knowing whether that’s a standard distribution of income for the applicants or whether/how much the acceptance rates differ by income bracket, but it’s interesting to note the balance).</p>
<p>protestthehero91, you’ll also be a great candidate for local scholarship (Kiwanis, etc.). Things like the state-sponsored Robert C. Byrd scholarship (based solely on numbers in Missouri, where I’m from), really add up… $1500/year x renewable all 4 years = $6000.</p>
<p>Plus, you’re a national merit finalist–that’s $8000 from Carleton right there, no need considered.</p>
<p>I think you have definite reason to be hopeful about Carleton’s FA offer.</p>
<p>Good luck, and enjoy your senior year!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thanks for this as well as the other posts. </p>
<p>I called Carleton and spoke with a Financial Aid Director. He could not have been nicer or more candid. He didn’t mince around to the fact that full-pay can be an advantage. However, he noted that two years ago, virtually the entire early decision round of candidates were admitted without financial issues. Last year, he believed that approximately 7-9 percent of candidates were affected. Said another way, approximately 8 percent of the candidates they wanted to accept early decision, they ultimately could not due to financial aid issues. We decided to check the box and go through the financial process. Ultimately, it is about value and about what my son can and should afford. Not any easy call, but I think the right one for us. </p>
<p>The 2009-2010 data is a bit dated but the ratio of applicants to financial aid award by income bracket is interesting. Of note, those receiving aid was significantly lower, 243 (in 2012) versus 283 in 2010. If the same ratio of those applying to those receiving was maintained, that means that approximately 266 applied for aid in 2012 or slightly more than half the entering class. It also means that approximately 257 students (ballpark figures mind you based on a 500 student class size) ultimately were full-pay. So, any way you shake it slightly more than one half of Carleton’s entering students are full-pay.</p>
<p>Ctyankee, completely agree with your FA decision.</p>
<p>And as a parent of another SWP alum, I wish your son the best in his application to Carleton!</p>
<p>Do you know if Carleton, and other need-aware schools, consider not only IF you need FA, but also HOW MUCH you need? My guess is they would.</p>
<p>Thanks. </p>
<p>Yes. They do consider how much you need based off the CSS Profile (for Fall Early Decision candidates and CSS Profile and FAFSA for Winter Early Decision and Regular Decision candidates.</p>
<p>Treeman, I agree with almost everything you said except for the emphasis on the absolute need to do an interview. I think it is a great way to decide if Carleton is right for you, and it’s a good decision for everyone to do one. However, I am quite certain that Carleton doesn’t weigh “demonstrated interest” in their admissions decisions, and you can ask any admissions person there and they will assure you that the interview really is not an essential part of the application from an evaluation standpoint. Again, that said, definitely try to do one as it’s a great tool, but it is not a situation where I would recommend going to enormous inconvenience or cost to do one because you think it will be a dealbreaker.</p>
<p>Well, I think “demonstrated interest” comes in many forms besides an interview. Colleges that are not interested in “demonstrated interest” do not have questions like “Why Carleton?” on their application supplemental. </p>
<p>As for interviews that involve cost, time and inconvenience, I think the short of it is that regional alumni interviews generally solve that for most. The long of it, I’ll set up as another thread so that we don’t spiral off-topic.</p>
<p>As possible clarifiers of the above posts, Carleton says in its Common Data Set that interview is considered and level of applicant’s interest is not considered.</p>
<p>So … I’m at a loss at how that is feasibly possible. </p>
<p>To set an example for discussion purposes, two applicants respond to the supplemental essay “Why Carleton?” </p>
<p>Candidate A writes: No idea. My mom is making me apply otherwise I wouldn’t be doing this. </p>
<p>Candidate B writes: From sitting in X,Y and Z classes at Carleton, I was thrilled by the level of discussion and the involvement of both students and professors alike. I think that Carleton’s trimester approach separates their program from other schools. Having fewer subjects but with more intensive study of each is my preference. </p>
<p>So, is Carleton saying that, in practice, it completely ignores both candidate’s responses as they share information on the student’s level of interest?</p>
<p>I think that at any school–unless admissions decisions are based on formulas–demonstrated interest (in the form of thoughtful essays, etc. and not how many times you’ve visited the campus) HAS to be a factor. Ctyankee’s example is pretty extreme, but I have a feeling that admissions officers have read enough applications to pick up on the subtleties, even if they don’t do it consciously.</p>
<p>Ideally, one would argue that “interest” is synonymous with “fit”, and of course that overall “fit” is what admissions officers are looking for when admitting students for every new freshman class.</p>
<p>In reality? Well, you could throw a lot of words around: the “game” of college admissions, “Tufts Syndrome,” “protecting yield rate” and so on…many of the reasons that applying to college is so unpredictable and I am glad to be done with the entire process.</p>
<p>Bottom line–showing interest never hurt anyone. And if Carleton is a top choice, odds are that you’ve conveyed your enthusiasm in your essays naturally.</p>
<p>I’m an alumni admissions rep and here’s my take on interviews and level of interest. Please note, these are not “official” comments from Carleton Admissions, just my take. Alum Admissions Reps are not given specific training and it’s not a quantitative process.</p>
<p>Although interviews are not required, they are highly recommended. Because of the greater number of applications the College has received in recent years, admissions decisions have become increasingly more competitive. An interview allows the student to get a feel for “fit” and, presumably, if they don’t think it is a good match, they won’t apply. At the same time, the interview report provides another data point with a chance to rate the prospy as Average, Good, or Superb in the areas of Intellectual Curiosity, Personal Qualities (maturity, leadership, etc.), and Overall with a section for comments. If there is a single most important quality from the admissions standpoint, I would say it is intellectual curiosity and that can be hard to see from transcripts and scores. With so many alum interviewers, there’s no way the college can compare students “head to head” as it were; it just gives a view from a different source than teachers, GCs, etc. In ctyankee’s example, I think Candidate B shows more intellectual curiosity than A.</p>
<p>wrt interest - I can’t think of any reason that Carleton would state that demonstrated interest is not considered if it secretly was. OTOH, I would view an answer to “why carleton” to be part of the application and, as mflevity said, more an expression of fit. Someone who is only applying because mom said so isn’t likely to fit in well with a group of folks who think Carleton is the greatest school on earth.</p>