<p>I have known of people with those stats who were not athletes to get into AU and UA. In-state kids can get really lucky here. My brother, for instance, literally did no work his first two years of high school and took the ACT once, so he ended up with a 27 and something below a 3.0 GPA and still got scholarships from AU.</p>
<p>And by tiers, I mean, obviously some publics are better than others (I’ve known people who’ve gone to pretty much every college/university in the state and there’s a pretty big drop-off from AU/UA to the rest), but Georgia has a whole system that I used to understand when I wanted to go to Tech. UA admits pretty much on stats alone (AU makes you do short answer essays on the app), but applying early/in-state can get you in. You can’t do that in places with static basic requirements for your numbers based on each school that also don’t have rolling admissions.</p>
<p>But I think it’s good that Alabama and Auburn are set-up as they are. You get out of them what you put into them, and they’re very good schools for a variety of disciplines.</p>
<p>“I have known of people with those stats who were not athletes to get into AU and UA.” </p>
<p>When did these students with low stats get in? Both UA and AU have become more selective over the last few years. UA only accepted 53.6% of applicants for last Fall, so I doubt very many non athletes who score 19 or lower on the ACT get into either school.</p>
<p>According to the 2010 common data set 0% of the first time, first year freshman class had an ACT composite score of less than 18. In contrast, 21% had a composite ACT of 30 or higher.</p>
<p>You need to climb the mountain one rung at a time. The next rung is UF and UGA. There is no question in my mind that UA is already in their class (better for MY money), but the rankings say otherwise. There are two important drivers to the rankings and they are reputation (among academic peers) and stats (primarily SAT/ACT scores). These two items tend to go hand in hand as improving the stats of the student body will automatically improve the reputation. SEA_Tide has nailed it. Given Alabama’s population base relative to Florida and Georgia, the key to improving the stats over the short term will be to enroll more OOS with higher stats. The key to the stats is the middle 50% of students (25th - 75th percentile). If you can remove kids with stats in the bottom quarter and replace them with kids in the 50-75% percentile, then you greatly improve the middle 50%. The strategy that gets you there is to employ the Honors College strategy to the next level down. That is, I would offer 50% tuition scholarships targeting OOS kids with stats below the typical Honors College levels. If such kids replace instate students in the bottom 25%, you are actually improving your revenue base as, even with a 50% scholarship, the student is paying more than instate plans. This additional revenue can fund more scholarships and academic infrastructure. For people in Boston, Chicago, NY, LA, Seattle, etc., a 50% scholarship is still an attractive bargain relative to local options. The rub becomes politics and a radical philosophical shift from UA being a school for the masses to an elite institution and the undisputed State flagship (like Michigan, Chapel Hill, UTA, etc.). I think this plan also makes Alabama better. Kids are going to have to work harder and test better. Parents are going to demand more from the public schools as they will want their kids to go to the elite institution in the state. Competition makes us better. The State flagship shouldn’t be a school for the masses, but an academic stretch that attracts the best and the brightest in the state. This is why we need to keep Dr. Witt in power as he has the political clout to take the current strategy to the next level, which will ultimately leave UGA and UF in the dust with UVA, UNC, and UTA next on the horizon.</p>
<p>mabama…while that may a wonderful prospect for UA and increase their revenue…it is disheartening for the students of this state…as you may know…the more rural, small town areas of this state do not offer ap classes, they dont have the money to improve at the current time…proration has hit alabama schools hard! ( I had my son attend a math science school 6 hours away in order that he could have a challenging hs) It would be a shame that the kids of this state are competing against oos schools that do offer these things and thereby have higher gpa’s (weighted) and higher scores on tests…and could not be admitted to their own state flagship… are they to be relegated to the lower level schools just because the school district they grew up in cant compete? </p>
<p>and beth’s mom raises a good point…will oos students stay and improve this state thanks to the education they have obtained here OR is the alabama student more likely to stay.</p>
<p>I think it is wonderful that alabama has become so attractive to oos students, and is making a college education more affordable to some of the top students from across the country (and if i was oos i would certainly take advantage of what they are currently offering) but in doing so, please UA dont forget the students of this state. As it moves up in rank, it will become more expensive and i too think some of the incentives being offered now, wont be there in years to come </p>
<p>hope this doesnt offend anyone…but its a point that needs to be considered as alabama families also struggle to pay tuition bills, and the wonderful PACT plan that so many relied upon to make that happen is in dissarray and may not be honored at all or will be diminished from what it was supposed to provide.</p>
<p>Even though I was an OOS student and am the brother of a current OOS student I couldn’t agree with you more Parent56.</p>
<p>UA is first and foremost a state school and has an obligation to take care of the residents of the state of Alabama. You don’t want to cross that line where all of a sudden in state kids feel like outsiders. And where UA is no longer looked to as The State University but as more of a private school in the state.</p>
<p>thanks nj…i just worry that now that the oos % is close to 50% that line is getting close. . if i recall correctly 2010 avg act for an alabama student is 20.3… thanks in large part to the school systems here. My eldest went to local hs… they didnt even know about psat exams… no chance of those kids competing for nmf…no one knows about it. no possibility of a gpa greater than 4 on their transcripts etc.</p>
<p>again though, i congratulate all of the oos students that will get a wonderful education at UA and the pride that is obvious on this board from the parents of accepted students. They will do well!!!</p>
<p>p56, is there something in place in Alabama that guarantees admission to some segment of Alabama kids? I’m thinking of something like the top 10% law at UT …</p>
<p>yds…no, nothing like that exists to my knowledge… it would be hard to do, due to the disparity of what is available …rural areas vs cities…no ap classes, no psats, unless it was done on a school by school basis…but would be extremely variable. </p>
<p>but i dont think the answer for alabama students is to replace the bottom 25% of INSTATE students with oos.</p>
<p>The reason the top 10% rule works, IMO, is because it disregards what your curriculum is, how many APs kids took (or didn’t take), etc. It’s about how you performed in your school setting, such as it is. Kids like mine, who go to a rigorous HS and aren’t top 10%, are disadvantaged, but I like the opportunity it gives a rural kid who’s done the best with what they’ve had to work with. Truthfully, I’d like to see it modified a bit and make UT admission contingent on not only top 10% but some minimum CR+M score, like a 1250, to ensure the kids can do the work.</p>
<p>I know I may offend some with what I am about to say, but here it goes. There are plenty, and I mean plenty of schools in Alabama for those unable to muster an ACT of 20 or higher. In no way, should UA or AU feel guilty about denying admission to students who score below some minimum such as 20 on the ACT. </p>
<p>Although I am sure that the lack of AP classes in some rural schools has an effect, I question whether one can really place the blame mostly on “the bad schools”. That sounds like the “bad teachers” refrain I keep hearing when it comes to the inner city. The truth is that the biggest variable in a child’s success is a parent, and that parent’s support system. It is also the culture in which a child is reared. I think parents of underachieving students need to take greater responsibility if they want their children to attend the flagship university in the state. </p>
<p>It just seems odd to me that some folks seem to underestimate the crucial factor of parental responsibility, and let’s face it, a lot of parents have kids without really taking much responsibility for their child’s success. Of course many of these parents don’t know how to do that in the best way, so we should help them, but ultimately, the parents have to do what it takes to help their children succeed. </p>
<p>That means for example, that the tv goes off, and the book opens up, and the child “is read to”. That the child is taken to a library or a play, or stimulated as often as possible. I think way too many just expect the govt. school to make their child a success.</p>
<p>If UA and AU continue to raise their standards, the students and parents in Alabama who want to attend the flagship schools will have greater motivation to learn more, to foster a more intellectual environment for their child, and to take prep courses to improve their test scores. Those who aren’t as motivated can attend a second tier school.</p>
<p>From the press releases I’ve seen, much of the growth in UA’s student population has been the result of recruiting more OOS students. It’s not that the in-state numbers have fallen, they’ve just not risen as quickly. Alabama also has a relatively stagnant growth rate in terms of the number of graduating high school seniors, so any growth needs to be in the form of OOS students.</p>
<p>I’m of the belief that parental involvement is one of the most important, if not the most important factors in a child’s success. We need parents and the schools themselves to value and promote educational achievement. In my experience with the Alabama public school system, that is not happening right now. In Tuscaloosa, the city’s board of education decided to split the old high school (Central) into three high schools and rationed out the more talented teachers to each school, as to give each school an equal footing. The end result is that the quality of each school widely varies between departments and top students are forced to rely on their innate ability, their parents, and a few caring teachers in order to succeed. I don’t really have a better solution other than to re-merge the high schools, but it suffices to say that the public educational system in Alabama even just off the UA campus needs improvement.</p>
<p>I am well aware of many of the problems facing lower-income schools since I attended such schools for many years of my education. Without the encouragement of my parents and the ability to go to a well-stocked public library, I really don’t know where I’d be today. That’s why it hurts me to see kids who obviously have potential to do well struggle in school and family situations that aren’t able or don’t know how to nurture their talents. There is no doubt in my mind that the state of Alabama has enough potential high calibre students; it’s just that by the time they graduate from high school, they are not at a high enough level where a UA education will be able to unlock their full potential.</p>
<p>Bama will not likely every abandon its rural kids who don’t have the same quality of K-12 education that the state’s city kids have. That’s why Bama has chosen to grow the school rather than simply offer scholarships to attract high stats OOS kids and say “no” to more instate kids.</p>
<p>People often want to generalize and say that the entire state has poor K-12 education and that’s just not true. If it were, the NMSF cutoff for the state would not be similar or higher than many other states. I have listed all the states’ cutoffs before in this forum to show that a large number of states have the same or lower cutoff as Alabama. The truth is that city K-12 is similar to what is found everywhere. It’s the rural areas that are lacking…probably somewhat similar to what is found in inner-cities elsewhere. </p>
<p>The University knows that if it were stricter in what ACT scores it allowed, it would become like some state schools where too few URMs are admitted. Bama is happy that it has 11% African American kids on campus. It’s a painful truth that across this country, AA kids are the ones who have suffered the most with poor K-12 education. The avg ACT score for an AA kid in the United States is a 16. So, if a student presents with a low ACT and a good GPA in the req’t curriculum, then likely Bama is going to accept that student. Bama believes that it can help compensate for that inadequate K-12 education that the student received.</p>
<p>It also needs to be noted, that the state of Alabama, despite its smallish population (about 5 million) has about 15 public universities…a large number of CCs…and about 15 private universities. </p>
<p>So, with 15 publics and a bunch of CCs, students seeking affordable degrees have many choices. Frankly, most students (everywhere in the US) can’t afford to “go away” to college and do have to go to their local state school and commute. </p>
<p>There really isn’t a big fear that instate kids won’t have anywhere to go.</p>
<p>. if i recall correctly 2010 avg act for an alabama student is 20.3…</p>
<p>Atlanta you make valid points…i am not making excuses for alabama kids not doing well on standardized tests…i agree that parents need to take a lead and i will go one step further…the culture of football needs to change…when teachers are being laid off, when my sons dont have their own textbooks…they dont need 17 football coaches at a 700 student highschool, A/C buses for the players, state of the art equipment and work out rooms for football team, 9000 seat stadium)… of course the argument is…well football supports itself… maybe, but when the pride in your school is football not academics, imo that’s a problem
i agree there are many other schools, they can go to…but i was saying or at least asking UA to keep in mind the students of this state also… but also think about that statement…and let me flip it back to you…i’m sure there are plenty of other schools in your state too…why didnt you go to one of those? because you want a top quality education for your child at a reasonable price</p>
<p>Honestly…how many oos parents would have considered UA if they didnt get great merit aid…full tuition, dept scholarships. would you honestly have looked at it the same way??? What if you got there and they said…well we are so glad you love the school, and the suites etc…but oops no merit aid now. There is nothing wrong with looking for merit aid…i did it with my son…and he got great merit aid in other states too as well as alabama. But the argument (right now) that oos students create so much more revenue is a bit overstated imo…most of the high caliber kids coming and improving UA stats and rank are getting very nice merit aid…actually paying less than an average in state student in alot of cases</p>
<p>My concern is not NOW…it is down the road, when they have acheived the rankings and the prestige etc, and their tuitions become inline with some of those schools…can the average kid in state afford it? (especially if they then reduce any merit aid and some stop coming)You oos parents have seen it happen in your own states…that’s why you were looking here… Actually right now i think is a good balance…50/50 instate/oos with merit aid for all…i fear the public ivy goal. </p>
<p>i’m not saying they wont have anywhere to go, but honestly i took offense at the statement that it would be a better school if you didnt take the 25% lower instate kidsand instead took oos kids and offered them money to come. As a state school it should ensure access to state kids too.</p>
<p>PARENT56, your fear is valid. And it is one that many have seen in their state schools across the nation. The lower achieving students, regardless of the reason, are being denied admission to their own state schools. Bringing students in from other states, with or without financial incentives, increases state revenue. As word spreads about the quality of a school, there is more interest generated in the students that do not qualify for financial incentives. So you can understand the overall state/institution incentive. We have seen this in Virginia and in Maryland, where schools that were “safety” schools when I was going to college have become much more selective. The good news is that as state schools increase their selectivenss, the public schools in those states have had to work to keep up with standards to meet the minimum needs to get students into those schools. In MD, that has been accomplished with agreements, specific college tracks in both the public schools and community colleges, and other programs to promote the state university while also supporting and increasing rigor in the pubic schools. But it all takes time- unfortunately.</p>
<p>mom2ck… not sure what the 30% AA has to do with anything but…you know the saying here…thank god for Mississippi (or we would be last in everything)</p>
<p>One point that was touched on but I think needs to be expanded on is that a lot of the low scoring districts are rural, very similar to here in TN. Low achieving inner city schools and low achieving rural schools have different issues. There is usually a big push to help inner city schools because they are so visible; students have a way to get to the library if they have initiative to go because urban areas have public transportation; there is free wifi at McDonalds if someone had an internet ready device. </p>
<p>In rural schools, transportation is a big issue. Hard to take your kid to the library if you’re 20 miles away, especially if literacy has never been at the top of your family’s priority list. And a child can’t figure out a way to get there on there own. Which wouldn’t be as much of an issue if his school library was well stocked. But many rural schools don’t have school media specialists (school librarians.) Or big budgets for books. And without school librarians, there may not be anyone to teach these kids information literacy and research skills. In rural areas, many times the only way to get connected to the internet is through a satellite connection. So a kid coming from a rural area may have had very limited connectivity through their lifetime. </p>
<p>Oh, and they’re not visible. And not a big voting block either since they’re sparsely populated. When you live an hour off an interstate and no one accidentally drives through your neighborhood, it’s hard to get attention and get anyone outraged over your plight.</p>