Will UA be a "public Ivy" school?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Alabama
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<p>Something is being left out of this conversation
Alabama’s good students, of which there are many.</p>

<p>In the past, the top Alabama HS students had to leave Alabama to get a world class education, and they usually did not return to Alabama.
UA does not need to serve all or even most of Alabama’s HS students.
The state of Alabama has a wide range of public universities available to it’s residents, 14 public 4 yr Universities.</p>

<p>Having one State University, that is a highly selective flagship institution,
that attracts the best and brightest, contributes medical and scientific research
to the state… That is a tried and true method to improve a states economy.
And giving Alabama’s HS students something to aspire to, that’s not a bad thing either.
Alabama graduates 50,000+ HS students every year, many of the top students leave the state, never to return. A world class flagship University can keep some of that talent, and even draw some from other states. UA can/is forming the base for Alabama’s future.</p>

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<p>OK, asking this solely because it came to mind while reading these posts so bear with me.
I understand the ACT is not necessarily a measure of intelligence but in a large part what the student has learned K-12, and that a deficiency in K-12 can be somewhat compensated for once at in college (there is my disclaimer.)
The thing is, is it even reasonable to think that the average 22ACT student can handle the academic level at UA? Thinking about DSs situation with Comp. Sci., he’s scored well enough to be Pres. Scholar. Given that, his degree program is quite challenging. Am I wrong to think that a less advantaged student is at HIGH risk of flunking out?
I understand that they may all start at (for example) different levels of math, but in the end the graduation requirements for the major are the same. Is is reasonable to assume that you can make up for poor education K-12 in four years?
Enlighten me guys!</p>

<p>Another thought while reading gojack’s post, while this is a discussion of serving all of Alabama’s students, it’s not at all unlike the system here in Illinois, the majority of students are academically ineligible for UofI, generally if you are under a 28ACT you don’t even try. The directional universities here seem to service the majority of the students in the under 28ACT range.</p>

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<p>good point al34… i wonder if they have ever done studies that looked at gpa etc vs entering act or drop out rates based on act scores at ua</p>

<p>when we picked uab for S2…i looked at their 4 yr grad rates which arent great…but found a document that showed that graduation rate in 4 years signigicantly increased with gap and act scores</p>

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<p>^^^ @gojack: Well, if DS goes on to law school at Univ of Alabama, I think it’s a pretty safe bet that he’ll stay in Alabama…especially if he’s met a cute Alabama girl to settle down with. Those are a lot of “ifs” though, LOL!</p>

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<p>Good point, gojack. Where I think UA will get the biggest boost is keeping it’s best instate students at home. There are enough good solid students in the state to move UA up the rankings. It’s just a matter of keeping them at home and headed to Tuscaloosa instead of auburn, Birmingham Southern, Tulane, Vandy, Sewanee and a few other popular choices.</p>

<p>Dr Witt has done a great job in changing the tide at many of the OTM schools. Now we just need to continue putting forth the time and effort to recruit these schools and show them they don’t need to leave the state to get a great education.</p>

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<p>I think more and more top instate students are starting to stay in state, if my daughter’s high school is any indication. Out of 16 NMF in her graduating class, only 2 are going out of state. The remaining split evenly between UA and that “other school” ;)</p>

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<p>traditionally alabama students stay in state. top students either auburn or ua…when my eldest graduated he was the only one from his school that went out of state… a few go to georgia tech in various years but they dont traditionally go far…and a bit stereotypical…but most alabama kids do return to alabama if they are from small towns</p>

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<p>*mom2ck… not sure what the 30% AA has to do with anything *</p>

<p>You may not have read my entire post. But in the US, AA kids have an average ACT of 16, so any state that has a very high AA population is going to have those ACT scores averaged into their numbers and there will be a lowering affect. So, now you can see that 30+% AA has a lot to with the state average ACT. </p>

<p>Honestly…how many oos parents would have considered UA if they didnt get great merit aid…full tuition, dept scholarships. would you honestly have looked at it the same way??? What if you got there and they said…well we are so glad you love the school, and the suites etc…but oops no merit aid now. There is nothing wrong with looking for merit aid…i did it with my son…and he got great merit aid in other states too as well as Alabama. But the argument (right now) that oos students create so much more revenue is a bit overstated imo…most of the high caliber kids coming and improving UA stats and rank are getting very nice merit aid…actually paying less than an average in state student in alot of cases</p>

<p>The OOS kids fall into two groups…both which help Bama a lot. </p>

<p>1) There are the high stats kids with the great scholarships. Their high stats help Bama in several ways…those stats help raise Bama’s middle quartiles…and that helps Bama raise its ranking, attract better profs, who in turn can get better grants come to Bama. It’s a domino effect. And, those kids are worth the investment.</p>

<p>2) The OOS students who aren’t getting the big scholarships (and there are MANY), do bring in more cash for the school. It has been rumored that 50% of this fall’s Frosh class is from OOS. Clearly, many of those kids are not big scholarship holders. (There will be about 5000 frosh…half would be about 2500. ) </p>

<p>Many of those 2500 OOS frosh will pay full freight and many will have a small scholarship. Bama enrolls about 500 kids with full tuition scholarships each fall. A number of those kids are instate as well. So, it’s very safe to say that a large majority of OOS kids are not getting huge scholarships. </p>

<p>Those with small scholarships are paying more than the instate kids are…and with their small scholarships, Bama is cheaper or similar in price to their instate school.</p>

<p>I personally know several OOS kids who are paying full freight. </p>

<p>When I met 8-10 families at Parents Weekend who were all from the SAME California high school, they told me that some got little or no scholarship money, but their kids wanted a big flagship school with the bells and whistles (and football school spirit) and their kids weren’t going to get into UCLA or Cal. So, Bama was a similarly priced alternative. (Instate at a UC is costing about $30k these days because their instate rates are high and their Room and Board costs are high)</p>

<p>While it’s true that the BIG scholarships kids may not have come to Bama without the big scholarships, it’s wrong to think that no OOS kids would come without big merit.</p>

<p>*# Students who have a 27 ACT or 1210-1240 SAT (critical reading and mathematics scores only) and at least a 3.5 cumulative GPA will receive $1,500 per year or $6,000 over four years.</p>

<h1>Students who have a 28-29 ACT or 1250-1320 SAT (critical reading and mathematics scores only) and at least a 3.5 cumulative GPA will receive $3,500 per year or $14,000 over four years.*</h1>

<p>The above scholarships are not large. Those recipients are still paying more than an Alabama instate kid is paying. Yet, the kid who gets the $3500 per year may find that going to Bama costs just a little more than going to much lower-ranked Illinois State University, yet Bama is a flagship that offers so much more. </p>

<p>Honestly…how many oos parents would have considered UA if they didnt get great merit aid…full tuition, dept scholarships. would you honestly have looked at it the same way??? What if you got there and they said…well we are so glad you love the school, and the suites etc…but oops no merit aid now.</p>

<p>That’s true for a lot of schools…even higher-ranked schools who only give need-based aid. Those schools are often sought simply because they give great FA. If those kids arrived on campus and were told, “Oops, no FA”…they’d turn around and go home, too.</p>

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<p>Just a small clarification Mom2ck, Illinois’ state flagship is University of Illinois, Illinois State University is in the same category as the other directional Illinois colleges, (NIU, SIU, WIU.) Just so we’re comparing apples to apples, or flagships to flagships :slight_smile:
Full pay at UofI for engineering was running 28K when we toured for DS, that was tuition only.</p>

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<p>AL34,
Yes you can make up for a poor education if you are willing to work.
I had a 21 ACT, I worked very hard, graduated in 3 yrs (BS Biology), my younger brother had a 35 ACT and flunked out after one semester, he didn’t go to class. There is a lot of research that higher ACT scores and more AP classes increase the odds of graduating. There is also a lot of data that kids drop out more from lack of funds than poor grades. A low ACT score, especially in math, is going to set someone back in the STEM majors. But with hard work they could graduate, maybe on a 5 yr plan. But the big problem for college students today is not studying enough.</p>

<p>“College students aren’t studying as much they used to, reports the Boston Globe. The average four-year college student studies 14 hours a week, down from 24.4 hours in 1961, estimate Philip Babcock at the University of California at Santa Barbara, and Mindy Marks, at UC-Riverside. The trend isn’t based on the student’s major, gender, race or SAT scores.” “some 32 percent of college freshmen somehow managed to study less than six hours a week — not even an hour a day.”</p>

<p>[What</a> happened to studying? - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/04/what_happened_to_studying/?page=full]What”>http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/04/what_happened_to_studying/?page=full)</p>

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<p>Is is reasonable to assume that you can make up for poor education K-12 in four years?
Enlighten me guys!</p>

<p>A school cannot totally make up for poor K-12 education. It’s not going to turn an ACT 22 into an Engineering student or a Comp Sci student in 4 years. STEM majors often have sequenced courses and if you’re not Calc ready when you enter, you’re behind and have to catch up.</p>

<p>However, not all majors require that kind of intelligence and K-12 education. Does anyone care if the awesome artist, actor, or musician has a low ACT? Who cares? Does standardized testing measure right brain skills? And, there are other majors where lowish or modest ACT scores can do fine. </p>

<p>Flagship Univs offer many, many majors. Those of us here who largely have STEM major kids can sometimes forget that there are many majors where kids can thrive without ever taking Calculus or any of the “hard sciences.”</p>

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<p>I would not be looking at 'Bama for ds2 if it weren’t for the money.</p>

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<p>“traditionally Alabama students stay in state.”</p>

<p>cber.cba.ua.edu/rbriefs/ab2007q2_poptrends.pdf</p>

<p>“The effect of decades of outmigration of young adults coupled with economic decline has left many rural nonmetro counties with populations that are older, less well-educated, have lower incomes, and are employed in lower-skilled jobs than their metro or even micropolitan neighbors.” </p>

<p>“the cumulative outmigration of young adults in the 20 to 29 age range from many counties,” “Both the lack of newer housing and poorly performing local public schools in some of Alabama’s more rural counties do not entice younger adults to remain and raise their families there.”</p>

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<p>UA President Witt’s First Year
“Dr. Witt presented his vision for the future of the University at the fall faculty/staff meeting. “We are an academic community committed to moving to the next level. I believe that transformation can be guided by the following vision for the future of The University of Alabama: First, to be THE university of choice for the best and brightest students in Alabama and A university of choice for all other exceptional students including the sons and daughters of Alabama alumni; second, to be a student- centered tier-1{$100 million} research university, and, third, to be an academic community united in its commitment to enhancing the quality of life for all Alabamians,” he said.”</p>

<p>[Dialog</a> - UA Faculty & Staff News UA President Witt’s First Year Highlighted by Important Events](<a href=“http://dialog.ua.edu/2004/03/ua-president-witts-first-year-highlighted-by-important-events/]Dialog”>http://dialog.ua.edu/2004/03/ua-president-witts-first-year-highlighted-by-important-events/)</p>

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<p>My opinion on ACT (and SAT) scores is that some districts, whose administrations and communities DEMAND continued percentage increases in standardized test scores as a barometer of the success of the education of that district really does benefit those students shopping for University education and OOS opportunities. I know that our children have been “trained” to take ACT style tests from grade school through the various tests from the ACT corporation that lead up to the actual ACT (Explore & Plan tests). The whole curriculum and focus towards training the kids to do better on these tests is no secret. For both inner city and rural districts, there are limited resources available to keep any sustained focus on preparing for these tests. That limited exposure leads directly to a statistical difference in those student’s ACT results (not necessarily ability) on those tests. These districts have a hard enough time retaining teachers and programming, and yes, overcoming the other community and parental issues driving education locally in their communities. The test scores CANNOT be used as the sole barometer of these kids future ability, when they cannot compete with the focused efforts put forth by the monied districts. State flagships MUST keep their doors open to these students with the knowledge that “ability” is not defined or limited by the barometer of the standardized test. In Illinois, as has been previously posted, the ACT standard HAS been raised to the detriment of in-state students ability to attend the U of I based solely on their ACT results. I would hope that the schools can find a way both to admit more of the highly achieving students which bring more status to the University’s national reputation, but still be focused on serving that segment of the population that needs to be measured by other means for acceptance.</p>

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<p>I would be in favor of UA targeting rural and inner city school districts for low cost ACT/SAT prep courses, and/or tutoring. Before coming to UA I significantly improved my ACT score through a prep course. </p>

<p>However, how expensive is an ACT prep book? I took no prep courses for the GRE, and improved from a 620/800 to a 740/800 on the Quantitative portion of the exam, and improved from a 630/800 to 690/800 on the Verbal. I did this through self study with about three different GRE prep handbooks. </p>

<p>I don’t think it is too much to ask students who are borderline on the ACT to improve their score if they want to attend a state flagship school. We really need to start expecting more from both parents and children. I think keeping the minimum ACT at 20 is being more than generous. Most state flagships have higher minimum scores than 20. If UA wants to gain greater prestige, it will have to come closer to that kind of selectivity. I think raising the minimum will increase motivation to do better!</p>

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<p>To add to Dad’s view on basing admittance on only test scores, there are many top students who do not test well…“trained” or not. My sister is a prime example, she suffers from test anxiety. So while being a top 5% student in a large Texas HS, she did not do well on the standardized tests and would not be admitted to many of the schools with such a “cutoff”.</p>

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<p>I still think Bama weights GPA higher than test scores for admission (which many state schools have to do).</p>

<p>*However, how expensive is an ACT prep book? I took no prep courses for the GRE, and improved from a 620/800 to a 740/800 on the Quantitative portion of the exam, and improved from a 630/800 to 690/800 on the Verbal. I did this through self study with about three different GRE prep handbooks.</p>

<p>I don’t think it is too much to ask students who are borderline on the ACT to improve their score if they want to attend a state flagship school. We really need to start expecting more from both parents and children. *</p>

<p>I agree. Every library and every GC has test books to use. There are even free practice tests on the internet.</p>

<p>*I would not be looking at 'Bama for ds2 if it weren’t for the money. *</p>

<p>And that is true for many high stats OOS kids. :slight_smile: But, there are also “good stats” kids from OOS that are coming to Bama as well. Both groups benefit the school in their own way. </p>

<p>*Just a small clarification Mom2ck, Illinois’ state flagship is University of Illinois, Illinois State University is in the same category as the other directional Illinois colleges, (NIU, SIU, WIU.) Just so we’re comparing apples to apples, or flagships to flagships *</p>

<p>I certainly know that UIUC is Illinois’ flagship. :slight_smile: I have family who went there. And I know that the next best state school is UI-Chicago. I think I know the name of every state’s flagship by heart. :)</p>

<p>That wasn’t my point. My intent was not to compare flagship to flagship. For a student who might not get into UIUC, ( or UCLA or Berkeley) but wants the flagship experience, then Bama is often a comparable cost alternative with a small scholarship (in the case of Ill State U) or without one (in the case of UCs). I used the example of Ill State U because I know a dad whose son was going to go there, but instead is going to Bama for about the same cost.</p>

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<p>^ just wanted to make sure :slight_smile: there are even people living here who are confused about the whole thing, just like those who think U. Chicago is a state school!</p>

<p>and just for the record, representing for those of us out there in the field…
***Does anyone care if the awesome artist, actor, or musician has a low ACT? Who cares? ***
I do, and while it’s arguably 50/50 academics/talent for admissions to the good programs, colleges do too. Great art is not created in a vacuum. (end of tiny rant!)</p>

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<p>I don’t have a problem with UA not accepting instate kids with a 20 ACT. What I don’t want to see is a time when UA becomes so prestigious that it’s unattainable for good (25 ACT 3.2 GPA) students to gain admittance. And that’s why I said I wasn’t sure I ever wanted it to become a Public Ivy. </p>

<p>I realize that prestige might be important for some of you. But I’d hate it if kids like my lil bro; who was only a good HS student and who has done well while at UA; didn’t have the opportunity to experience UA.</p>