<p>I'd agree with several posters that Carleton probably best fits the bill, "not too preppy" "environmental causes" "no make-up, pony tail, vegetarian" "close community among students" "drawn toward creative, artistic people." But most of the schools you mention (along with others - Bates, Grinnell, Macalester and Oberlin also quickly come to mind) all would be reasonable options. Certainly more popped collars to be found in the Northeast, in general.</p>
<p>Your daughter needs to think about how she feels about city/suburban v. small town/rural. Midd, Williams, and Amherst all offer great nearby hiking/skiing and Carleton has its own arboretum with miles of running and x country ski trails. Mac, Haverford and Swarthmore will obviously offer much less in this regard, but best city access. </p>
<p>She honestly sounds so well rounded she probably could find a happy niche at almost any of the above. That may not make the narrowing down any easier, but fortunately may make her that much more likely to ultimately fit in wherever she finds herself.</p>
<p>D also applied and was accepted to many LACs, including Williams, Pomona, Carleton, Grinnell, and Macalester. After visiting all of them, she chose Carleton. Not as preppie and isolated as Williams, not in a city like MAC and Pomona, and just liked Carleton better than Grinnell. Other items that she considered were availability and ease of study abroad classes for her major (math/physics), trimesters v. semesters, and discussions she had with faculty. At the time I thought it was too much to visit all, but it was worth it, as each LAC has its own culture. She visited most of them after she was accepted. (also was accepted to Caltech and did not attend after a weekend on campus).</p>
<p>I don't have kids at any of these schools but I know from past visits that Middlebury offers strengths in several of your daughter's interests, especially foreign languages (check out their summer language program), creative writing (the Breadloaf program is nearby), and environmental studies (Bill McKibben is on the faculty). There is an 18-mile trail around Middlebury (the TAM) which offers myriad opportunities for runners and hikers, not to mention the Middlebury Snow Bowl, nearby X-country skiing, and the network of trails in the Moosalamoo area. Burlington, VT, is not too far if one craves more urban offerings, but the town of Middlebury itself is charming. I have also heard that the college especially values community service -- another area that may make it appealing to your D. I can't speak to the social scene, but on one of our visits there, my daughter sat in on a class, and she was gratified that an alum from her high school who happened to be in the class went out of his way to chat with her, and the professor of the class invited her to take part in the discussion.</p>
<p>I'm assuming from your list of LACs that weather is not an issue!</p>
<p>Although D is not a student at Middlebury, she was just there for the 7 week intensive language program and LOVED IT!! She is a no make-up, ponytail wearing, tennis playing smart girl who said at the end of her time there, "I think I could go to school here!" The campus is lovely - you literally walk across the street and you are in town, which is beautiful and quaint. She thought the food was great (vegetarian options, though she is not) - that is saying alot as her school usually ranks in the top 10 for food. </p>
<p>And, didn't Princeton Review just name Middlebury's professors #1 in the nation?</p>
<p>I agree that at first glance Carelton and Bowdoin seem like the best fits amongst those schools (esp. if she's ok with the ultra-cold). From a friend at Carelton, it sounds like the student body is very close, as are the faculty-student realtionships. Swarthmore, Haverford, Macalaster and Grinnell also seem like good other schools to look itno.</p>
<p>If she's interested in looking into schools with a slightly more "artsy" vibe (you say she's drawn to artsitc types), have her check out Vassar and Wesleyan.</p>
<p>My son graduated from Williams in 2007. Of the schools on your daughter’s list the only one he considered at the time was Amherst but in retrospect some of the others may have worked as well. His other top choices were Wesleyan, Hamilton and Kenyon, mainly because of their focus on the arts. He applied ED to Williams and went on to have four wonderful years. As a graduate he is benefiting greatly from the wide and supportive alumni/ae network. The takeaway prize is the wonderful circle of friends – students and professors – ever widening as he embarks on real life. Williams continues to be there for him.</p>
<p>Although it sounds like your daughter would succeed at any of her choices I’d like to say a word about the role of the arts and Williams. Williams has a well deserved reputation of being a sporty school – full of active, outdoorsy, physical kids – from football players to runners to dancers. My son is not a team athlete but he’s active in an Eagle Scout kind of way. He loved being in the Berkshires and took full advantage of mountain activities from snowboarding to trekking to just gazing.</p>
<p>What many people don’t know about Williams is that its arts community is as equally influential as its sports community and in fact the two often overlap, my son being the perfect example of an artist who happens to like to snowboard. The Williams student often evidences the trifecta of academics/sports/arts: the overlap between healthy body/healthy mind is a credo that is taken seriously as is an active and well funded commitment to the arts. </p>
<p>Williams has an excellent music department with performance opportunities for non-majors. Three world-class museums on or near campus and is considered a top “feeder” for directors and curators at museums all over the country. Theater is a small department but with fabulous facilities and the background of the Williams Theater Festival. </p>
<p>The English department is profoundly good with several successful writers and poets on faculty (Jim Shepard, Karen Shepard, Andrea Barrett). There’s a long tradition of creativity.</p>
<p>My son and his friends were not heavy drinkers though they were (and are) socially active extroverts. There would undoubtedly be some heavy drinking at all the colleges on your daughter’s list, but not to the degree that it would negatively color her experience.</p>
<p>In short your description of your daughter sounds so much like many of my son’s friends. The descriptor that popped out at me is upbeat. These are happy, confident kids with a whole world of opportunities ahead of them.</p>
<p>Good luck to you and your daughter and let us know how she does.</p>
There would undoubtedly be some heavy drinking at all the colleges on your daughter’s list, but not to the degree that it would negatively color her experience.
</p>
<p>I agree with momrath in that Williams sounds like an excellent fit, because it's so well-rounded. However, don't discount the heavy drinking. It IS part of many campus cultures, and it MAY "negatively color her experience." That's something that she has to decide for herself--an overnight visit on Thursday or Friday would be best. And especially if she's thinking about ED, extended visits are crucial.</p>
<p>And your basis for being an authority on life at Williams and other colleges is. . .?</p>
<p>Of course, everyone should visit and draw his/her own conclusion.Overnights are excellent as are visits when school is in session. My son wasn't able to take advantage of either of these options and relied heavily on gut reaction. Trust it!</p>
<p>I would also recommend talking to current and recent students (or parents of current and recent students) who share your values and priorities.</p>
<p>Everyone has his/her own threshold of tolerance to negativity and believe me all colleges have negatives. Rank your priorities and in the case of negatives pick your poisons. Bad things happen at good colleges, all of them and if you spend enough time trolling through college newspapers you'll find enough horror stories to make your hair stand on end.</p>
<p>Or as venerable poster TheDad said many times in response to how his straight daughter reacted to the "rampant" lesbianism at Smith: We know. She's not. It's not an issue.</p>
<p>Have you looked at Vassar? I hate math and science and I never have to take another class in either because of our lack of curricular requirements. English and history classes FTW!</p>
<p>momrath: My basis is personal opinion as an otherwise-liberal teetotaler. Perhaps you believe that only personal experience is worthy evidence--I think otherwise. No matter your experience, NO ONE can make an accurate blanket statement that drinking at College X won't negatively color a student's experience. Abuse of alcohol, and drugs, can negatively impact many students, as well as not affect many other students. Students at Williams, Swarthmore, and every other college except perhaps BYU will abuse alcohol; statistically, this occurs more often at some colleges than others. Because in a data set, in order to have a median, you must have equal numbers of data beneath and above that median.</p>
<p>I agree with you on many things, momrath, including the recommendations to "pick your poisons" and talk to students who share your values and priorities. For me personally, your arguments concerning Williams' drinking culture are unpersuasive because your S, however wonderful, does not share my values. But from what I glean of the OP's D, Williams sounds like an excellent fit and heavier drinking seems a fair tradeoff--the least deadly poison.</p>
<p>Thanks for all of your comments. I've just finished reading your comments, and I'm most appreciative. I'm going to let all of these thoughts slumber with me tonight, and would love to talk with you about specific things that you've mentioned. Also, thanks for reminding us of the importance of safeties that my D would be happy at. She has plenty of safety options, but none that she wants to go to. So, we'll work on that, too. Thanks again & Talk with you soon</p>
<p>Just thought I'd pop in to say my son is a very very happy teetotler at Williams. Didn't drink one drop his frosh year and can't wait to leave to go back tomorrow.</p>
<p>His eyes were dancing as he loaded the car and he made us change our 9 am ferry to an 8 am ferry.</p>
<p>OP's student may feel differently.</p>
<p>Oh, he is not an athlete at all. His most physical thing is running up and down the four flights of stairs to his dorm room. He does enjoy being friends with athletes, among his many other friends.</p>
<p>He is one of the artier people -- he's a musician of many sorts and acts and directs a bit. His girlfriend is the arty type as well.</p>
<p>He does not feel that Williams has a jock atmosphere. No one can dispute the presence of alcohol, but I think the only place to escape it entirely is a religious school or a woman's college. Some have pointed out that Swat has less drinking. I'm sure that's true.</p>
<p>However, it didn't impact my son's experience at all.</p>
<p>Work on some safeties--DD's BFF who was Val did not get into half of those schools and had her heart set on Amherst.</p>
<p>She is happily at Kenyon--check that out. It's crazy out there and midwest schools are a lot easier than east coast. Mid, Amherst and Williams are crapshoots even for the most talented students.</p>
<p>I think drinking is an issue anywhere... yeah, except maybe religious schools. There are substance-free housing options, though, and some schools (Carleton is one) have a sort of middle ground between sub-free dorms and regular (drinking) dorms. I think they're often called "quiet dorms" that sort of split the difference. Not sub-free by contract, so to speak, but students who don't want a lot of rowdiness either. My son opted for sub-free at his college for this, his freshman year. So far he is really pleased with it.</p>
<p>By the way, I agree Carleton may be just the right spot for the OP's daughter. I have only heard about it second hand. Son's best friend is headed there, but the smart, quirky atmosphere is what most attracted him.</p>
<p>We just did this last year. On your list, dd really loved Bowdoin and Amherst. Personally, I liked Bowdoin better (Amherst felt very country-club, Bowdoin kids were very down to earth and friendly.) but I really have to second the suggestions to look at Vassar and Wesleyan (and maybe Oberlin).</p>
<p>
[quote]
statistically, [alcohol abuse] occurs more often at some colleges than others. Because in a data set, in order to have a median, you must have equal numbers of data beneath and above that median.
[/quote]
That's exactly the problem. We don't have reliable, published statistics that compare substance abuse college to college. We only have interpretation and personal opinion.</p>
<p>Statistics can be misleading and opinions of strangers are just that, opinions of strangers. The OP asked the opinion of strangers and I gave mine based on my son's personal experience. </p>
<p>Keil, Peace! I'm marking my calendar and will ask you for your personal appraisal in June of 2011 when you have completed your first year of college. Your outlook on alcoholic consumption (by yourself, by your friends, by your peers) may change, may not change. For now, enjoy your junior year.</p>
<p>Even though several of these LACs sound like a good fit, it's so good to be reminded of finding schools that my D will likely be admitted & would be happy attending.</p>
<p>We'll look at Bard, Skidmore, Kenyon, Vassar & Grinnell to widen her safety net, although I don't think Kenyon or Grinnell are actual "safeties" anymore, even for top students, and I'm sure that Vassar can't be counted on, either. We keep adding more top LACs that have the same single digit odds, and keep struggling to find viable, interesting LACs that can be safeties.</p>
<p>Thanks again for all of your ideas. I'll do more researching tomorrow. It's so helpful to hear your thoughts.</p>