<p>Open question to all forums on the realistic admissions chances for my son to Williams and/or Amherst.</p>
<p>His SATs are 740/710/720</p>
<p>Though he doesn't participate in school team sports, he is a 2nd dan black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and practices Kendo & Iaido. He has a strong interest in Japanese language and culture, and has studied Japanese in school since 8th grade. </p>
<p>He has also played classical bassoon for 8 years, and been in our city youth symphony for 3 years. </p>
<p>He is currently in his Junior year. This summer he is selected for an exchange program where he will attend high school in Japan for 6 weeks.</p>
<p>His main interests lie in English/Japanese as a double major. </p>
<p>My question: Is it worth applying to these two very selective colleges. His grades have been straight As, but this year he's gotten a couple of Bs with two AP classes. His counselor has told him without straight As, forget about highly selective colleges (like these). </p>
<p>Also, I know Williams and Amherst like athletes .. My son likes martial arts, but isn't by any means a jock.</p>
<p>Your son certainly has quite a bit going for him. From what I have been told from admissions, the strength of curriculum is the most important consideration. If he took 2 APs and there were 3 or 4 offered, that is great. If there are numerous students taking 4 each junior and senior year, then 2 will not look great, especially if these other students at his school get As. A couple of Bs in and of themselves will not keep an applicant out, but it is relative. I am not sure I agree with the comment about Williams liking athletes. It is a small school with quite a few varsity teams, so the athletic recruits (somewhere around 65?) do get preferential treatment (I am certain if your son were a highly recruited athlete he would have been admitted ED with those stats) but for the non-recruited athlete spots, i.e. the other almost 500, athletic love is not a requirement. In fact it might be a negative. Williams I know tries to fill a balanced class, so once the teams are filled I think a dancer or singer or whatever else would be preferred to a non-varsity athlete. Nobody can tell you how good of a chance he has, but I know kids at Williams who were told not to even bother applying by their counselors. However, it is a numbers game, and there are so few spots, and there are some allocated for legacies, locals, first generation to college, etc so it takes some luck and a very solid application to get one of those. Any chance he would be in some kind of special category for his music? I don’t have any experience in that are. Good luck</p>
<p>It’s a numbers game. Behrumt is right about that one… </p>
<p>Don’t stress out about the “chances” your son has. Admission to top colleges goes far beyond stats and extracurriculars. Once you reach a certain level of qualifications, there’s just no way to know whether the committee will choose you or not. My best advice is to cross your fingers.</p>
<p>I’d have to disagree. Admissions to selective LACs is actually not a numbers game. The “numbers,” i.e. GPA, scores, rank, have to be at a certain level, but after that these colleges like/need to fill their campus with interesting kids who do interesting things.</p>
<p>Williams likes multifaceted kids: academics/arts/some sort of physical activity. The OPs son qualifies there. His many-year commitment to music and martial arts is a strong plus.</p>
<p>And bassoon!? . . . are you kidding me? I’d be hard pressed to think of a stronger hook.:)</p>
<p>Is your son ethnic Japanese or does he just have a strong interest in the culture? Either way it’s a plus, but depending on which it is he might play it differently in his application. Cross cultural experience is always valuable.</p>
<p>He should be sure to submit a performance tape.</p>
<p>In my opinion, his chance of admission is quite good. His counselor doesn’t seem to understand what LACs are looking for. Of course there are no guarantees and he should have a balanced list including some solid safeties.</p>
<p>Sorry, I may have expressed “numbers game” with a misleading connotation. By “numbers game,” I was not referring to an applicant’s statistics. I was referring to the fact that top schools receive so many applicants… probably enough to fill the incoming class two or three times over with high-school all stars… that being chosen is somewhat of a game. There’s no assurance of “winning” by having all the right statistics or extracurriculars.</p>
<p>My son was in the same situation as your son. He is now happily enjoying his sophomore year at Williams, still playing the bassoon. He did have slightly higher scores/ 4.0 and took every AP class his high school offered, including online when he ran out of math courses to take. Can your son take the SAT again to boost the scores a little more?</p>
<p>I would encourage contacting the music departments of each of the schools he wants to apply to this summer. Set up meetings with the music department when you visit. Be prepared to submit recordings with his application. Our son also submitted a music resume. If his high school is highly competitive, the Bs may not hurt him. My son had many wonderful acceptances, but chose Williams. I think playing the bassoon helped him tremendously in his admissions. Be sure to check whether each school your son looks at has an actual bassoon teacher versus an oboist who also teaches bassoon. Amherst did not have a specific bassoon teacher when our son applied, nor did several other top tier schools. The bassoon teacher at Williams is fantastic. We were specifically told that a strong recommendation from the Music Department at Williams can be a tipping point for an application.</p>
<p>My son was not particularly athletic either, but now he is in great shape and enjoys being fit. He has found a nice group of friends who share his interests. WIlliams is an exciting, vibrant place for all types of kids! Good luck!</p>
<p>Certainly worth applying. As at any school, the importance of the bassoon will depend, in part, on the college’s needs (are they short a bassoonist?). SAT’s are solid, but understand that Williams’ medians include students with other hooks (recruited athletes, ED legacies, etc.)- successful “non-hook” applicants will often have SAT’s >2,300. Needless to say, should also look at other top, but slightly less competitive, LAC’s, e.g. Haverford, Carlton etc. as are also outstanding schools.</p>
<p>Thanks all! I am grateful for the quick and numerous responses.</p>
<p>I know I am stressing about this much more than my son, mainly because I’ve seen first hand the doors that are opened with credentials from the elite schools. The potential is there for him, whereas it wasn’t for his parents. </p>
<p>We are not ethnic Japanese, but my son has taken very strongly to the language and culture (except the eating of raw eggs ). It will be interesting to see how much more of the language he picks-up after his term in Japan this summer.</p>
<p>He’s retaking the SAT in March, though the tutor he works with says that at a certain point getting higher score boils down to missing 1 question instead of 2 or 3 on the entire exam. </p>
<p>Ultimately it’s his happiness and success that matters. I need to keep reminding myself of that. My main point in asking was to get a realistic picture of the possibilities - and have all of us fall into a trap chasing a false hope. </p>
<p>Any thoughts on Amherst admissions relative to Williams? My son seemed somewhat more enthusiastic about Amherst after looking at their course descriptions.</p>
<p>^^^Yep, D’s BFF got accepted to Amherst but WL’d at Williams. I suspect it was because D got accepted to Williams and they lived on the same street with similar resumes. The small LACs want to make sure the have a diverse class which is why I think your son has a good chance.</p>
<p>I would say that the overall selectivity between Williams and Amherst is about the same, though I’d give Williams the edge for support of musical kids. There are just more performance options at Williams than at Amherst and the school needs musicians to fill the slots, even if they are not music majors.</p>
<p>After he visits (which he should do!) he’ll have a better idea of the differences between the two schools. No reason not to apply to both – as well as a balanced list of less selectives.</p>
<p>Your son’s international experience and Japan focus will be a plus for him. You’d be surprised how many students – even at these “elite” schools – have never traveled outside of the United States, especially to Asia.</p>
<p>Don’t worry so much about the SATs. Prep, retake and forget about it. His scores won’t keep him out or get him in. Same for the one or two B’s on his transcript. This is not a deal breaker.</p>
<p>His intensive extracurriculars and intellectual interests will be what pushes him over the wall into the accept pile, so he should concentrate on crafting a knockout application that weaves all the thread of his profile in to a three dimensional image. Supplemental materials, essays and recommendations are critical here.</p>
<p>You don’t mention your financial situation. Will your son require need based aid? If yes, then make sure your EFC is workable before proceeding. If no, he might consider applying early decision, but if he does that he must visit first.</p>
<p>Have you visited both schools? That’s important. D crossed one off her list after visiting and pushed the other to the top of her list. And the school she didn’t like was the one with the most interest heading into the visits.</p>
<p>They are not, of course, clones of each other and one would want to visit/explore both. For example, Williams has a larger student body (nice for a small school, i.e. less claustrophobic for some) and arguably a more beautiful campus. Amherst is a bit less geographically isolated with more proximate schools (U. Mass, Smith etc.). The music program at Williams is outstanding, with many chamber, orchestral and jazz ensembles and a well-known and artistically active faculty.</p>
<p>Have you explored the strength of the Japanese programs at at Amherst and Williams? I don’t think that either school is well known for having strong language programs.</p>
<p>If he intends to continue the bassoon, it will help him with Williams. I agree with the other posters that you don’t have to have all As if you have the test scores(your son does) and are an interesting addition to the student body.
I don’t think it is “easier” to get into one or the other, that is probably more a matter of chance and your skill set compared to other acceptable applicants in a given year.
Your son should visit and see what he thinks about the schools, and if he can see himself happy at either or both, apply.
But honestly, if he likes Japanese and English, he should also look at Midd.</p>
<p>My daughter at Williams had a couple of B’s at a non-competitive high school and still was admitted. She did have higher test scores than your son though. </p>
<p>I’d recommend considering early decision at whichever school he likes best. Definitely look at Middlebury. Have him keep taking the SAT or ACT too. Some people will disagree with that but it is a matter of a swing of a couple of questions at the top level and he may get lucky. My second daughter got two questions wrong on the whole SAT the first time she took it, well above her PSAT or any practice test she had done. She’s a bright girl but a lot of that was luck and just being in her best frame of mind and body on that day.</p>
<p>If he’s good at Bassoon, be SURE that he makes a CD sample to send with his admissions packet. I chose Williams over AmHerst because they had a substantially better classical music program. For example, I was shown around campus at AmHerst by the head of the music department, whereas at Williams I was just another talented musician who was still nurtured.
If he’s good enough, definitely look into the Berkshire Symphony.</p>
<p>My daughter is awaiting RD News from Williams. She did NOT submit a music resume or CD. She has been in high school band (marching and concert) playing Clarinet in the highest symphonic band for four years at the HS, achieved area recognition (which is above Region) and is also a pianist. Any comments on whether people who have strong music backgrounds on their common app but aren’t submitting an arts/music supplement still get in probably with the help of their music background? </p>
<p>Other stats of hers: 740 CR/ 730 M/ 750 W on SAT; 800 Math II subject test; 720 Physics Subject test; National Merit Finalist; class rank: 8/672.</p>
<p>did either of the admitted Williams students receive likely letter/early write?
Thanks</p>
<p>My son just got an early acceptance letter from Amherst. He has several Bs on his transcript, but he’s also ranked #1 by a large margin, because he’s taken a lot more AP and college classes than anyone else. So rigor and class rank seem to outweigh more conservative class choices where the students do manage to get straight A’s throughout high school.</p>
). It will be interesting to see how much more of the language he picks-up after his term in Japan this summer.</p>