<p>Totally ridiculous post. The top LAC have incredibly strong graduate placement and do incredibly well with recruiting. I personally favor Dartmouth due to the larger size. There's, in my opinion, the perfect amount of social activity at Dartmouth. Dartmouth is very integrated, I don;t see this being an issue.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Look, if you're so serious about becoming an engineer, for example, you're likely attracted to schools that are well-known to educate great engineers such as MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, Cornell, Michigan and CMU. These are schools that have a strong tradition of producing super-talented engineers, aside, of course, from having top quality faculty and students to boot. Often times, these are schools that have very high level research works with matching great facility to conduct high level research. The operative word here is HIGH Level research. These schools are not in any way inferior to Dartmouth or Williams in the field of engineering, and therefore, these are excellent schools for those who would like to become an engineer.</p>
<p>All the research-based schools I've mentioned are not ordinary schools. Their labs and facilities are superior to Dartmouth and Williams. Thats what matters to many serious engineering wanabes.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Engineers are employable with a BS degree, and so many engineers never pursue graduate study. In this case, it's desirable to get as much exposure to different engineering disciplines and state-of-the-art research as an undergraduate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I'm afraid I have to disagree, for one of the reasons that Corbett cited in his argument: most engineering jobs are available to those with just a BS degree. What that also means is that most engineering jobs out there, frankly, have nothing to do with research. Heck, even many MS-level engineering jobs have nothing to do with research. Hence, what does it matter that you had exposure to myriad research facilities if you're not actually going to be pursuing a research career anyway.</p>
<p>Look, I went to one of the 'premier' engineering schools that butchokoy listed, and the truth of the matter is, maybe only 25% of the undergrad engineers there actually cared about research. And yes, those students were the ones who went on to engineering grad school. The vast majority of the eng undergrads didn't care - heck, most of them didn't even know where the research facilities were. All they cared about was getting a job after graduation. Yet I am quite sure that they (and I) would take great exception to the notion that they weren't 'serious engineering wanna-be's'. </p>
<p>Engineering employers also usually don't care very much about research knowledge, instead preferring topical production knowledge. For example, if you want to get a job as a process engineer in an oil refinery, it doesn't really help you very much to have done engineering research. What helps far more is, unsurprisingly, to have completed a summer internship or a co-op in an actual oil refinery. </p>
<p>One could also note the high level of engineering success enjoyed by Harvey Mudd graduates, despite the fact that Harvey Mudd is a LAC and hence has no graduate programs whatsoever.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the "grad students at research universities take attention away from the undergrads" line is a red herring. Listen, I'm a graduate student at a research university. Nobody cares about graduate students. We are research slaves, and that is our purpose in life. We are not taking attention away from anybody, because we are not getting attention in the first place.
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</p>
<p>Ha! I think what people meant to say is that grad students are getting more faculty attention than are undergrads, although, granted, that's not saying much. </p>
<p>Then again, part of it may be purely psychological. Many undergrads wonder why they get no attention at all from the faculty, and they justify it by saying "Well, that's because the faculty are spending their time with the grad students." To say that the grad students don't get much attention from the faculty either is to then raise the very uncomfortable question of what exactly are the faculty doing with all their time anyway? One would then inevitably begin to question the value of the tenure system itself, particularly when you see certain fully tenured professors who haven't published any academic papers, haven't pulled in a grant, and haven't served on a PhD committee in years (or, in a few cases that I know, for over a decade). Yet nothing can happen to them because, well, they're tenured. </p>
<p>But these questions are simply too subversive to the status quo of academia. It's better to let undergrads believe that they're not getting any attention from faculty because they're "too busy" helping the graduate students. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But the advantage of a research university is that the labs are well-funded enough to have postdocs, grad students, and undergrads as collaborators and co-authors. And since grad students and postdocs are available to move projects along 60 hours a week, undergraduate co-authors get published in much higher-impact journals than they would if the projects were solely on the undergrads' shoulders.</p>
<p>I went to MIT as an undergrad. I had no problems getting a great research job in a top lab in my field, and was co-author on a paper in a high-impact journal. I wrote my own paper, on which I was first author, on a project I completed myself. And when I applied to grad school, my PI wrote a letter of recommendation that said I walked on water. Personally, I don't see the part where I was disadvantaged.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, mollie, I think you're telling a story that is highly specific to MIT (and to Caltech). Yeah, you as an undergrad had no problems getting a great research job in a top lab and then getting published simply because not only does MIT have the excellent UROP system that fosters close collaboration between undergrads and faculty, but more importantly, MIT has built a culture that encourages such behavior, such that even if UROP were to be dropped tomorrow, most MIT faculty would still provide plenty of high-quality opportunities for undergrads. </p>
<p>At other prominent research schools, those sorts of opportunities for undergrads are far more sparse, perhaps due to the sheer number of undergrads (i.e. sometimes more than 5-6 times the number of undergrads that MIT has, but with nowhere near a corresponding 5-6 times an increase in faculty size). Heck, I seem to recall you yourself saying that if you had gone to Ohio State, you probably would have ended up just washing test-tubes or other such scutwork instead of actually being given opportunities to perform meaningful research. </p>
<p>The point is this. Sure, MIT (and Caltech) are excellent places to go to do high-quality undergraduate research. But that's not true of all big-name research universities across the board. In many cases, I would argue that some people may actually have more research opportunities by going to a LAC than by going to certain big-name research universities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The point is this. Sure, MIT (and Caltech) are excellent places to go to do high-quality undergraduate research. But that's not true of all big-name research universities across the board. In many cases, I would argue that some people may actually have more research opportunities by going to a LAC than by going to certain big-name research universities.
[/quote]
I agree, though I wouldn't limit the "good guys" to Caltech and MIT.</p>
<p>I think that any of the smaller research universities are places that foster outstanding undergraduate research -- I think the issue is more small vs. big school than research university vs. LAC.</p>
<p>Regarding the ED and financial aid... won't you be able to get out of the ED contract if the need is not satisfied, sort of?</p>
<p>Yes, that's why I'm drawn to smaller schools like Williams and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Reika: I think you can. My friend got into NYU ED but couldn't go because they didn't offer enough. But I don't want it to come down to that ):</p>
<p>
[quote]
Nor is there any evidence that students who go in ED wouldn't have as easily gotten in RD.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then why is the acceptance rate for ED triple what it is for RD at Dartmouth? This has to be more than just athletes and legacy admits. These schools are close enough that I would pick one and apply ED to maximize your chances, although this is coming from someone who was W/L applying RD.</p>
<p>Thanks gellino, that's what I've planned to do. As soon as I choose one of the two and work out the financial stuff.
Can anyone tell me anything about the academic rigor of both schools? Are they about the same?</p>
<p>"Regarding the ED and financial aid... won't you be able to get out of the ED contract if the need is not satisfied, sort of?"</p>
<p>Some schools say - quite clearly - that you can, but only to apply to "non-competitive" schools (i.e. state schools). Remember need is how THEY define it, not how you define it. If, financially, you feel you can do without comparing offers, which can vary quite widely even in "100%-of-need" schools, then go for it.</p>
<p>"Then why is the acceptance rate for ED triple what it is for RD at Dartmouth? This has to be more than just athletes and legacy admits.:</p>
<p>I said absolutely nothing about legacy admits. I said "full-pay" admits. But even then, this provides no evidence regarding international admissions whatsoever. And Dartmouth has said, repeatedly, that the standards they use for admission ED and RD are the same.</p>
<p>Almost 50 percent of the students accepted during the ED round at Dartmouth (178 of 382 students) are athletes or legacies. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Class of 2011 Early Decision Admissions :</p>
<p>The students — 193 males and 189 females — were notified of their admission to the College on Dec. 7, 2006.</p>
<p>Recruited athletes -- of which there were 120 -- comprised about 31 percent of the admitted group. According to Furstenberg, the majority of athletic recruitment in the Ivy League is accomplished through early admissions programs, a process he said is a "fairly efficient way" to enroll recruited athletes in the absence of athletic scholarships.</p>
<p>The geographic distribution of admitted students showed a strong variation from previous years with a large decrease in students from the Northeast. Ninety-one students were admitted from New England and 110 students were admitted from the Mid-Atlantic</p>
<p>Thirty admitted students live outside the United States and 23 are non-citizens, making up the largest number of international students ever to be admitted to the College during early decision.</p>
<p>Approximately 50 percent of those accepted attended public school, down from 59 percent in 2005. Of the 382 admitted applicants, 45 percent attended private school and 5 percent attended parochial.</p>
<p>Fifty-eight of the accepted students were legacies, a slight drop from the 60 legacies admitted early last year.</p>
<p>Valedictorians made up 27 percent of the admits, salutatorians 10 percent and students in the top tenth of their class 90 percent. Among accepted students the mean SAT verbal score was 702, the mean SAT math score 713 and the mean SAT writing score 701.</p>
<p>Despite slight fluctuations among groups, the total number of students of color admitted early remained similar to last year; 70 students of color were admitted early to the College this year, compared to 71 students in 2005.
TheDartmouth.com</a> | Early decision numbers hold steady for ‘11 class
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</p>
<p>for the class of 2012- there were 33 football players admitted and 65 legacies admitted during ED.</p>
<p>23 non-citizens largest number of international students ever admitted ED!
That just shot down all my hopes ):</p>
<p>
[quote]
Almost 50 percent of the students accepted during the ED round at Dartmouth (178 of 382 students) are athletes or legacies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That still means that the ED acceptance rate for non-athlete, non-legacy applicants is at least double the RD acceptance rate.</p>
<p>This gets 35 posts and my thread on the SAME lines gets 7? </p>
<p>Shame. :(</p>
<p>Okay, I want to ask one thing. I just used the dartmouth EFC calculator and it came up with an EFC of ZERO (probably due to some sinking forex rates nowadays). Will it be safe to apply ED on this account, since they like dont expect my family to pay anything (if the EFC=0 part means that)?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Elastine;</p>
<p>Like I posted on your thread, no one outside of admissions truly knows what discussions take place about internationals that need full rides, even at need-blind schools (altho, in reality, no school is need blind). And, no one outside of FinAid knows how they consider international income/assets and the like. So, IMO, no, it is not "safe" to apply ED.</p>
<p>btw: Mini is correct (the former Dean of Admissions even wrote about it): ED matriculants are much more likely to be full pay than RD acceptees.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Will it be safe to apply ED on this account, since they like dont expect my family to pay anything (if the EFC=0 part means that)?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There is no such thing as "payng nothing" even at schools that have no loan policies and meet 100% of your demonstrated need with loads of grant aid because each school requires some sort of student contribution, so that students can be active participants in financing their education. Most of the time, the student contribution is used to cover misc. items that are not part of the tuition, room and board.</p>
<p>From Dartmouth's guide to FA </p>
<p>
[quote]
</p>
<p>Page 4- Budgeting Basics</p>
<p>Your Budget:
Tuition, fees, room & board are not the only expenses associated with going to College. We recognize that. We determine a “Cost of Attendance” for Dartmouth students, which builds in not only the fixed charges, but a reasonable allowance for variable, discretionary expenses. You’ll have to carefully monitor your own spending on books, travel, entertainment, laundry (yes, eventually, you will have to do laundry.)</p>
<p>Page 5</p>
<p>As you can see, some of your expenses are those fixed costs, like tuition, room & board, which are billed directly by the College. But you also need to have money available during the term to cover your variable expenses like notebooks, haircuts, pencils, shoelaces, pizzas, toothpaste, newspapers… you get the idea. Where does that money come from, you ask? Even though those costs are budgeted into your financial aid package, we don’t hand you cash for those things. Those items are covered out of your own family’s contribution, as well as earnings you will receive if you are employed on campus. But it takes a few weeks for those paychecks to start rolling in, so don’t come to campus unprepared to buy your books and supplies and posters for your room – you will need to have some cash on hand right off the bat.</p>
<p>International Students - page 31</p>
<p>International students may have special adjustments to make. The Financial Aid Office will help in any way we can.</p>
<p>Winter Clothing Expense:
The budget of first-year students from tropical climates includes a one-time $250 expense for winter clothing, and fall scholarships have been increased by $250. This usually means that the family pays $250 less on the college bill and that family funds are thus available for this purpose.</p>
<p>Leave Term and Break Periods:
Many international financial aid recipients work for the College full-time during leave terms and often for at least part of the vacation periods between terms.</p>
<p>Travel:
International students do not have a travel allowance, although students receiving Dartmouth scholarship aid will have the cost of one round trip home over your four years covered by additional scholarship funds. (Students must complete their first year at Dartmouth to be eligible.) The trip must be a direct route from Hanover to your home, and there is a $1,600 cap on the additional aid. You should see someone in the Financial Aid Office at least two months in advance. At that time, you will also be asked to sign a statement that you intend to return to Dartmouth to complete your education.</p>
<p>SEVIS Fee:
If you are required to pay the $131 SEVIS fee, your award will be revised to include this cost and Dartmouth Scholarship will be increased by $131 for fall term. This reduces the amount you and your family will need to pay Dartmouth for fall term and represents a “reimbursement” of the $131 SEVIS fee.</p>
<p>This policy does not cover students whose parents live in the U.S. or students who receive travel funding through their government, their parents’ employers, or private sponsors. Your family is responsible for your transportation to Dartmouth as well as your return home after graduation.</p>
<p>Parents’ Contributions:
31
Unfortunately the College is not able to provide increased scholarship or loan assistance to replace all or part of the parents’ contribution because of currency restrictions that may exist in your country.</p>
<p>Foreign Student Loans:
Since international students are not eligible for subsidized federal loans, Dartmouth provides these loans from College funds. Nine months after termination of enrollment in either undergraduate or graduate study, all students will go into repayment status and will be required to make monthly payments of at least $50.
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</p>
<p>After 4 years of bills from the school, I can tell you first hand (Blue can also :) ) tell you what not covered in the 100% demonstrated need category (this I know because they either showed up on the bill or I paid for them directly)</p>
<p>books
toiletries and other sundry items that you may need to purchase from the CVS or the COOP
DASH - (Dartmouth Cash) to do laundry, you will need to purchase laundry
detergent
Going over on your meal plan (this amount is placed on your next bill and not covered by FA)
Gym- should you decide to take up skiing, snowboarding, horseback riding or some other PE, most of them have a charge associated with them
Student Fees
Student Health Fees (if you don't have adequate insurance, you will get a grant for 1/2 the cost and you will be billed for the other half)
Dinner in town with the friends
storage costs
reprographic fees
Movies, entertainment
Trips to the airport ($$ rount trip on Dartmouth coach to Logan Airport)
Frat/ Sorority fees (should you decide to go greek)
Additional funds associated with studying abroad; plan tickets, transfer chareges, spending $.
Senior dues
Senior class gift</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm stuck in a similar situation as Elastine, who posted the Amherst or Dartmouth thread.
It's time to decide where to apply, and I can't decide between Williams and Dartmouth! They're similar, but different enough to confuse me.
Can anyone explain the major distinctions between the two colleges?
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</p>
<p>This is silly. Why not apply to both? Oh, and have some great safeties at hand while you're at it. Why do you "need" to decide now?</p>
<p>I think that both posters are trying to apply ED</p>
<p>To respond to Gellino, the ED group at any selective top college is largely a self-selecting group of highly qualified applicants who would most likely get in during the RD round anyway. The chances of acceptance when applying ED are not raised significantly for <em>individual</em> applicants; that's not the way statistics works. For example, the undergrad acceptance rate at Columbia was 8% last year, but that doesn't mean each and every applicant has an 8% chance of admittance, you see? Some will have higher prospects than others. It's similar with ED. If you're absolutely not going to be admitted during RD, you're not going to be admitted during ED either. The only people for whom it may make a difference is those middle-ground, on-the-fence people who are in between but can demonstrate that they are applying ED because they REALLY REALLY REALLY want to go (and not because they think they'll have higher chances.)</p>
<p>As mini has been saying forever, there is absolutely no evidence (not even a shred) that applying ED increases one's chances of admissions. The reason that admissions rates are higher in ED is because ED applicants tend to have better qualifications and know what they want, and tend to be able to pay full sticker price. Call any admissions office that offers ED and they will tell you that.</p>
<p>That said, I don't think the poster should apply to either school ED. He or she should apply to both schools during the regular admissions cycle and decide in April/May which school is the better for him or her.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The only people for whom it may make a difference is those middle-ground, on-the-fence people who are in between but can demonstrate that they are applying ED because they REALLY REALLY REALLY want to go
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're never going to know if you're on the fence or not. I would surmise a relatively high % of applicants are on the fence or else the W/L wouldn't comprise such a high % of total applicants. Your typical 1450-1500 SAT, top 2% of hs class candidate easily justifiably should be good enough to get into Dartmouth and easily can be rejected. Applying early can certainly be the difference versus a similar 1470 SAT, top 1% candidate who applies RD. </p>
<p>If the OP has honed his choices down to two schools as similar as Dartmouth and Williams, he should easily be able to make the case of why either is his first choice. The only other thing I would say is that generally from my experience I have met more that have been accepted at Dartmouth and rejected at Williams than the other way around. I think the ~3% higher acceptance rate at Williams is more than offset by how much more self-selecting the applicant pool at Williams is and isn't necessarily as based on another throw-on Ivy application from a mediocre candidate who knows very little about Williams and isn't good enough to get into either school.</p>
<p>Haven't studies been done showing avg SAT (after accounting for athletes) is lower for ED admits than RD admits? I thought I've seen something like that on here before.</p>