<p>I'm stuck in a similar situation as Elastine, who posted the Amherst or Dartmouth thread.
It's time to decide where to apply, and I can't decide between Williams and Dartmouth! They're similar, but different enough to confuse me.
Can anyone explain the major distinctions between the two colleges?
I'll be a science major--looking to go to grad. school after college. Will this major make one college a better choice for me than the other?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance!</p>
<p>Also, does the site campusdirt not work anymore? ):
I used to kill hours of time looking through that site</p>
<p>if you care about international prestige, pick Dartmouth..and if you are into science i would say Dartmouth.</p>
<p>No undergraduate education, including Dartmouth, Harvard, etc. provides a better preparation for science grad school than Williams does. Just look at the Phd programs Williams undergrads attend (the top 10 programs, year in and year out, in physics, bio, chem, etc.) and the number of NSF grants Williams grads received (amazingly high on a per-capita basis). Williams is very strong across the board in sciences, has top of the line facilities (50 million dollar science center completed in 2000), and unlike Dartmouth or in particular places like MIT or Harvard, you won't have to compete for undergrad research opportunities with grad students in the same field. Instead, you'll have a chance to perform cutting edge research with full professors. </p>
<p>Williams, Dartmouth (or for that matter, Amherst) are very similar schools, and none of those three will provide a material edge over the others in terms of prestige or grad school admissions. Visit before applying, and if you get a good gut feeling about one over the other, go where you will be happiest ...</p>
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The best labs and best research works are done at major research universities such as HYPSM, Berkeley, Caltech, Michigan, Cornell, Columbia, Penn, NU, JHU, and probably UCLA, CMU and GeorgiaTech.
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</p>
<p>This is generally true, except in one category of research. That would be research by undergraduates.</p>
<p>The facilities and faculty at schools like Dartmouth or Williams are generally less impressive than those at research universities -- but the advantage is that they are fully committed to undergraduate availabililty. The science faculty at LACs are <em>forced</em> to rely on undergrads as collaborators and co-authors -- there aren't any grad students to fill those roles. So they start looking for, and grooming, promising science students even at the freshman or sophomore level (of course, the professors teach even the introductory classes, so they know who to focus on). It's rare to get this kind of attention at a research university (where intro classes are shunted off to TAs).</p>
<p>The American Physical Society confers the famous Apker</a> Award for outstanding physics research by undergraduates. I checked the Apkers for the past 15 years. Most of the schools on the list above -- including Yale, Cornell, Columbia, Penn, NU, JHU, UCLA, CMU, and GA Tech -- have a grand total of zero Apkers over that time frame. </p>
<p>Among research universities, the leader is Princeton (3), followed by MIT, Harvard, and Caltech (2), and Berkeley, Stanford, and Michigan (1).</p>
<p>But Williams (3) and Dartmouth (1) are clearly competitive as well, especially given their small enrollments.</p>
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Williams or Dartmouth? ... Can anyone explain the major distinctions between the two colleges?
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<p>Dartmouth is small and isolated. Williams is even smaller and more isolated.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is known for its focus on undergraduate education, but also maintains graduate and professional programs. Williams is even more focused on undergraduates, and is famous for its tutorials, which are capped at an enrollment of two. </p>
<p>Both schools have large endowments per student. Williams is somewhat wealthier by this measure, and is not burdened by high professional school expenses, which frees up more $$ for faculty and undergraduate resources.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has an active Greek system, which is largely segregated by gender. Williams has abolished Greek organizations, and the social system is completely integrated. The Dartmouth social system is richer in heritage and tradition, and offers better parties; however, social opportunities are often deemed better for men than for women. The Williams social system is tamer, but more equitable.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is part of the Ivy League, and has more name recognition than Williams. Neither school has as much name recognition as they deserve. Both names are highly respected by graduate schools and employers.</p>
<p>The Dartmouth community seems much more fractious than the Williams community. At Dartmouth, there always seems to be some kind of controversy brewing, with one group of students, faculty, administrators, or alumni loudly protesting the actions or views of another. The Williams community, on the other hand, tends to value consensus over confrontation; campus issues seem to be defused behind closed doors, rather than aired in public. The Williams Record is generally a much duller read than the Daily Dartmouth or the Dartmouth Review.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has Division I athletics, Williams is Division III. Dartmouth sports are played at a higher level; however Dartmouth (like the other Ivies) is handicapped, relative to most DI schools, because of the absence of athletic scholarships. Williams sports are played at the lower DIII level, but Williams teams tend to be very successful at that level.</p>
<p>Selectivity is comparable. Many students apply, and are accepted by, both schools. I understand that they split cross-applicants more or less equally.</p>
<p>Why aren't you applying to both? Why is this even an issue? </p>
<p>And DO YOU HAVE A SAFETY? That's a much more important question.</p>
<p>i agree with mini. you apply to both.</p>
<p>if you're thinking about ED, you shouldn't apply to either ED if you're not beyond any shadow of a doubt that it's the school you want to attend, no matter what kind of financial aid you get.</p>
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Look, if you're so serious about becoming an engineer, for example, you're likely attracted to schools that are well-known to educate great engineers...All the research-based schools I've mentioned are not ordinary schools. Their labs and facilities are superior to Dartmouth and Williams. That’s what matters to many serious engineering wanabes.
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Except that the Original Poster expressed an interest in science -- not engineering. Big difference.</p>
<p>Engineers are employable with a BS degree, and so many engineers never pursue graduate study. In this case, it's desirable to get as much exposure to different engineering disciplines and state-of-the-art research as an undergraduate. And there is no question that a large research university will provide more opportunities in these regards then Dartmouth (which has a relatively small engineering program) or Williams (which has none at all). </p>
<p>But the Original Poster wants to pursue a science degree, and expects to go on to graduate school, which is mandatory for most science careers. In this case, the primary object of undergraduate education is to prepare students for graduate study. And schools like Dartmouth or Williams excel in this regard.</p>
<p>Science graduate schools don't really care whether or not you worked with the latest and greatest lab equipment as an undergrad -- the grad school process is expected to quickly correct any deficiencies in this respect. What they do care about is (1) students who have mastered the fundamentals (so they don't have to waste time bringing them up to speed), and (2) students who have experience working closely with faculty on research (the exact nature of the research isn't critical, since it will probably be different in grad school anyway). Schools like Dartmouth and Williams are great places to learn the fundamentals and to work closely with faculty as an undergrad. That's why they are so successful at placing their students in graduate programs at research universities.</p>
<p>I think the "grad students at research universities take attention away from the undergrads" line is a red herring. Listen, I'm a graduate student at a research university. Nobody cares about graduate students. We are research slaves, and that is our purpose in life. We are not taking attention away from anybody, because we are not getting attention in the first place.</p>
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The science faculty at LACs are <em>forced</em> to rely on undergrads as collaborators and co-authors -- there aren't any grad students to fill those roles.
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But the advantage of a research university is that the labs are well-funded enough to have postdocs, grad students, and undergrads as collaborators and co-authors. And since grad students and postdocs are available to move projects along 60 hours a week, undergraduate co-authors get published in much higher-impact journals than they would if the projects were solely on the undergrads' shoulders.</p>
<p>I went to MIT as an undergrad. I had no problems getting a great research job in a top lab in my field, and was co-author on a paper in a high-impact journal. I wrote my own paper, on which I was first author, on a project I completed myself. And when I applied to grad school, my PI wrote a letter of recommendation that said I walked on water. Personally, I don't see the part where I was disadvantaged.</p>
<p>Thank you so much to all posters. You've provided a lot of insight (:
Corbett worded it perfectly: I'm looking to go into science, not engineering. I love the LAC feel of both Williams and Dartmouth and feel that they'd both prepare me well for grad school.
I do have safeties. I've narrowed down my ultimate reaches to Williams and Dartmouth. Although an international, I don't have the opportunity of visiting (until winter vacation anyway), from what I've researched and heard, I'm in love with both schools and want to apply early to one of them. I'd die happy if I got into either. It's just the decision that's hard to make.
I love the tutorials at Williams, but Dartmouth has better athletics. Williams seems smaller and more socially integrated, but Dartmouth as an ivy has more name recognition. It's these little things that confuse me.
At any rate, I'm relieved that Williams is strong in sciences (Thanks Ephman, I was originally worried about that). I'm still a little confused, but I'm hoping things will work out in time.</p>
<p>Does any of this really matter? It is more than likely that the OP is not going to get into either. The question is a reasonable one when both acceptances (and financial offers, if any) are in hand.</p>
<p>If you have to choose one or the other because you can't apply to both, do so on the basis of something that might actually be distinctly different, like the food.</p>
<p>(And if you need significant aid, you have no business applying early to either.)</p>
<p>Mini: That's why I want to apply to one of them early. So I can increase my chances of getting in.</p>
<p>Absolutely unproven for internationals at either place that it increases your chances one iota. What you do know, absolutely for sure, is that you won't be able to compare financial offers.</p>
<p>Yes, that could be a downside...but don't Williams and Dartmouth both have need-blind admission for internationals?</p>
<p>Need as THEY define it. My d. applied to a series of "need-blind" "100-of-need" schools. The differences in offers, lowest to highest, over four years was $47k, or more than one year of full tuition/room/board. Differences in loan amounts from $0 to $17k. (Williams was one of them, and fell in the middle of the pack).</p>
<p>If these differences don't give you pause, by all means apply ED (even though there is not a shred of evidence that it will help your admissions chances.)</p>
<p>CC's unfaltering for any school in the Ivy League vs CC's incomparable for LAC.</p>
<p>/thread explodes</p>
<p>Whoa, I didn't know the offers could vary that much. Thanks Mini, I'll look more into it before deciding.
How does applying ED not help admissions chances at all?</p>
<p>There is no evidence that an international student who gets rejected RD would have gotten in ED. Nor is there any evidence that students who go in ED wouldn't have as easily gotten in RD. Both of these schools will tell you that their admissions standards for both rounds are the same. (The only obvious difference, it seems, is that more "full-pay" applicants are accepted ED, as well as sports recruits.)</p>
<p>Williams is liberal arts college which are pretty worthless so go with Dartmouth.</p>