Trishka, if you son wishes to participate in research, Michigan is a great option as it offers more research opportunities than most universities. Most Freshmen who ask for an UROP/MRC are placed in the field of their choice before classes begin. MRC has the added benefit of living in a nice dorm with other MRC participants.
Since your son has already done research and could be published before even setting foot on campus, he may want to contact professors working on research relevant to his interests once on campus.
re #15:
“Many CS majors turn down famous schools like Cornell, Berkeley, Mellon, etc to come to Pomona because they desired a well-rounded liberal arts college experience. Pomona does not admit by major, so a student could study whatever they wanted among its offerings, regardless of what they listed on the application. This fosters an especially interdisciplinary and exploratory perspective which is tougher to find at a big university.”
I can’t speak for Berkeley or Mellon, but the above warrants some clarification with respect to Cornell.
At Cornell a CS major can be undertaken either in its College of Engineering or its College of Arts and Sciences (“CAS”). Neither of these two colleges admit by major.
a student at both of these colleges (or the others) can take courses at any of the seven of Cornell’s undergraduate colleges. Since most of these colleges have specialized programs that extend beyond the traditional arts & sciences subjects, often in a more “applied” direction, and are not just duplicates of Arts & sciences curricula, the opportunity for “interdisciplinary and exploratory perspective” is likely wider at Cornell, actually. There is simply more one can learn there. Particularly when graduate courses, colloquia, lectures, etc associated with graduate programs are mixed in. Most students there take courses in multiple colleges there. I took courses in three of its colleges. My daughter took courses in four or five.
Any prospective CS major who desires a “well rounded liberal arts college” curriculum can access that, fully and completely, by matriculating to CAS at Cornell. CAS offers the full gamut of liberal arts college majors, and has distribution requirements typical of liberal arts colleges.
The one applicable point in the referenced paragraph - assuming that is what was intended-is the “experience” as a student there is not one of a stand-alone liberal arts college but rather one of a university. I’ll leave it for others to determine how much the Claremont Consortium resembles a traditional stand-alone liberal arts college, either, since I don’t really know. I do know that when my daughter visited Pomona they took her to a party at Pitzer- a different college. Sounded somewhat integrated to me, in a way that is not really typical of a liberal arts college. Not saying that’s a bad thing, just not typical. A university setting is not a bad thing either.
Monydad, I was curious about Cornell Thanks for your response. They are almost like a public school in terms of levels of enrollment. Apart from the Ivy name… which has a lot of prestige… could you share what can be the other benefits of Cornell compared to say U of M. Does it provide more opportunities to a higher percentage of students. Is there more personal contact than at U of M. Is there a little more hand holding in terms of feedback on assignments etc.
Trishka, I am not Monydad, but I am an alum of both Michigan (undergraduate) and Cornell (grad school). I did not notice a significant difference between those two schools when it comes to student body, class size, resources, and graduate/professional placement.
With regards to receiving a more “balanced” education at Pomona as opposed to the larger research university, I would have to agree with Monydad. That’s a myth. At Cal, Cornell and Michigan, the CS department is part of both the College of Arts and Science and Engineering. It is possible to have a traditional liberal arts education while majoring in CS at any of those universities. At CMU, CS is its own college, but again, the curriculum is flexible enough to allow undergrads to major in CS while receiving a good liberal arts education.
. Like some public U’s in tems of enrollment- the small ones.
Eg, U Vermont, Binghamton U.
Nowhere near the big ones. half the size of U Michigan ?
Not the biggest private u either, smaller than NYU, USC; similar total enrollment to Penn. But this is off the top of my head, I don’t recall specifically. You can look up enrollment data, if interested. Not a question for me.
If you want a run-down of benefits of Cornell in general I suggest ask on the Cornell sub-forum.I can tell you some benefits of Cornell, but not as compared to Michigan. Because I am not intimately familiar with Michigan, never applied there, etc. All I can say in comparison is I have been visiting the Michigan campus the last couple of years. I find the Ithaca area, and the college campus, far more visually appealing, and the city has more character IMO. More “hippy-ish”, less suburban feeling. And around here (NYC suburbs) there is a fairly clear “pecking order”, with Cornell being the more desired admit, Michigan being behind it.
I have no idea how to quantify what percentage of who gets what opportunities. And I’ve never made a study of that either.
I have no basis to compare level of “personal contact” between any two schools. I have not made any study of this.
Re: degree of" handholding", I likewise have no basis to compare. I can say that when I attended Cornell I received no “handholding” whatsoever. I did get feedback on assignments though.
BTW my D1 attended an LAC and, as far as I can tell, also received no “handholding”. In fact once she went to see her prof about a particular topic she was having trouble with. The Professor then changed his exam to put a question on it for that one topic she was having trouble with. She would have been better off if there had been a TA to go to, like that same class might have had at a university, instead of the Prof making the exam !
I have a senior at UCB and a sophomore at Pomona. Both love their schools but they are very different. Neither of mine are in CS. But my oldest has 2 roommates who are CS majors. They are the cream of the crop, but the program is very demanding and the roommates are always anxious and working. Pomona has lots of research opportunities. More than half the students at Pomona do research at some time during their 4 years. She has the SURP undergrad research program grant and will stay this summer to work with the head of her department. She also does research during the school year with one of her profs. It is very easy to join a research project.
You have to be your own advocate at Cal. No one is looking out for you and it can be hard to find your social group. Pomona has more built in supports freshman year assigning you to a group of 15 kids with a sophomore who you meet with on a regular basis etc. It’s easy to see your advisor whereas as Cal, you go for advising and you take a number like at a bakery.
Sounds like he has great opportunities. Good luck with your decision. I am a Cornell grad and I can tell you the campus is lovely in spring/summer but cold and dark in winter. I did not want either of my children to matriculate there, so they never even made it to Ithaca.
Good to know you can get a well-rounded liberal arts experience (well, truthfully, you can get pretty much anything at a major U), but I still stand by what I mean. It’s a cultural thing. The students at Pomona naturally seek out courses outside their specific major. The numbers from the school are that some 40% switch to a completely different major from what they were intending because they fell in love with another department. I know a student who won the Intel Science Fair Grand Prize in HS, came in as a bio major, and switched to religious studies. I know another who went through the pre-med track, took a linguistics class for fun, and then switched over to linguistics altogether because she loved it so much. The issue was not GPA- both of those students had pretty much flawless grades throughout college. The school openly admits some 10-15% of admits in a given year who list “undecided” for their major. Many students at universities see their liberal art core requirements as an unnecessary chore and want to get them out of the way as soon as possible. Students who did pick Pomona over the schools I referenced did so because they wanted to be in a community that openly celebrated the liberal arts, exploration, and cross-disciplinary enrichment. I will avoid comparisons to specific schools that I lack experience with, but in my case, having been in-state for UT Austin, I thought there was a lot of segregation between students with specific academic interests. The CS majors seemed to be very much insulated. Lots of snarky remarks about the ease of humanities/social science courses that wouldn’t be tolerated at Pomona. I’m sure if you’re motivated and passionate, you can form a diverse friend group, build a broad liberal arts education, find close-knit experiences, etc. at a large school. But just the nature of two distinct institutions creates a difference in what the usual student will see.
On note to the Claremont Colleges, it’s a unique dynamic in that five distinct liberal art colleges are joined together in a large “university-like” setting. Socially, the social scene, range of events, and number of extracurricular activities are akin to a small university like Dartmouth, Rice, or WashU. But each individual school is a liberal arts college, with the small classes, professors devoted to teaching, residential experience where everyone lives on campus, and the like. So it’s often considered more desirable because you’re getting the distinctiveness of the stand-alone LAC experience in your home school, but you’re not as limited in courses to take, professors to interact with, and things to do as others might be. I don’t think the system diminishes the individual liberal art strengths of the school in any way. All 5 of the colleges rank among the top in liberal art rankings on their own merit.
“All I can say in comparison is I have been visiting the Michigan campus the last couple of years. I find the Ithaca area, and the college campus, far more visually appealing, and the city has more character IMO. More “hippy-ish”, less suburban feeling.”
Visually appealing is in the eye of the beholder. Cornell is in a lovely area to be sure; it’s just the location that would be a concern to me. Personally, I would not be particularly happy to be attending a school in the middle of nowhere. Ann Arbor, at least the Central Campus area, does not feel suburban at all. Perhaps you never got out of the North Campus?
" And around here (NYC suburbs) there is a fairly clear “pecking order”, with Cornell being the more desired admit, Michigan being behind it."
That’s a surprise! Kids in the suburbs of NYC prefer an east coast, instate school.
re #27, switching majors is commonplace among liberal arts colleges everywhere, not sure what that big deal is. I switched majors (and colleges, in fact). My D2 switched majors. Half the people I know switched majors. Or majored in something they didn’t think of before college.
28, small school in small location can be a problem. Cornell however is not a small school. There is enough to do right there, for most people, most of the time.
Frankly Ann Arbor didn’t feel to me like Manhattan either.
I actually agree with most of monydad’s points. Cornell’s campus is definitely prettier than Michigan’s, although Michigan’s campus is very easy on the eyes, and Michigan’s Law School is as beautiful a quad as any in the nation.
Nature in and around campus at Cornell is also nicer than at Michigan. It is hard to beat Cornell’s landscape.
Finally, most high school kids would choose Cornell over Michigan. From my experience, I would say 3 in 5, or eve 2 in 3 students given the choice between Cornell and Michigan will choose Cornell. That is not to say that Cornell is more prestigious in the eyes of graduate schools or employers, but it definitely is more prestigious in the eyes of high school kids and many parents. So in the eyes of academe and corporate America, Cornell and Michigan are equally prestigious, but in the eyes of high school kids and many parents, Cornell will usually trump Michigan.
I disagree with monydad that Ithaca has more character than Ann Arbor. In fact, it is rather the reverse. I have lived in Ithaca for two years and in Ann Arbor for four. Ann Arbor is a much nicer city than Ithaca. Ithaca is cute and quaint, but gets old really quick. Ann Arbor has a lot more to offer, yet remains more charming and quaint than Ithaca. Most people I know who have lived in both Ann Arbor and Ithaca would say that same.
seems like we’ve had this discussion before.
Obviously I didn’t get tired of it.
I still go up there nearly every year.
I’m going again in August.
After Ann Arbor, late April- early May.
The latter is because I have to. The former is because I want to.
Great comments and links Thank you. I browsed some of the Cornell links. It appears the library is not open 24/7 at Cornell. … have to check the Cornell website. Not that this will be a deciding factor but I am surprised. Some of my closest friends went to Cornell (grad school). One became a prof at Columbia and the other joined Wall Street. Of course I have good friends from many universities! I much more familiar with the grad school experiences.
Monydad Interesting comment about the prof setting the exam on the difficult question.
I had never thought that this could be a problem with smaller schools but yes, teachers are looking to challenge their students and with smaller schools, may be they can take more liberties.
My son is building his own spreadsheet. Will see what he comes up with!
I’m a Cornell grad (undergrad) and just wanted to chime in on some of the comments. Cornell is very liberal arts focused, even for engineers. There are large numbers of out of college electives that are required for graduation in all the colleges, for all majors. Even as a freshman you will have some small classes. After mid sophomore year, all the classes get much smaller. There are plenty of opportunities for undergrad research and making connections with professors. Students just need to be self directed in reaching out to professors. There are study areas opened 24/7 and the engineering library in Olin is open until 2 am. Ithaca is gorgeous. Amazing natural beauty and there is so much happening on campus that there is no opportunity to get bored “in the middle of nowhere”. College town has everything a student would need and downtown Ithaca enough restaurants to satisfy parents wanting to take students out for nicer meals. Good arts scene too.
That said, there are some things to consider. Cornell is pretty stingy with transferring in AP credits. Many of my daughter’s AP classes wouldn’t transfer, even with 5s. Majors aren’t officially declared until second semester sophomore year so sometimes it can be difficult getting into specific research areas or for some of the academic teams until after you officially declare. The more recent grads that I know all say that it is a very competitive environment amongst students. Weather leaves a lot to be desired too but that would be the case at Michigan too.
My daughter opted not to apply to Cornell (and she would have been a third generation legacy) because she didn’t feel it was the right fit for her. IMO, when you are considering universities of this caliber, that is the most important consideration - does it feel right! The educational opportunities will be there no matter what the choice.
This is what we picked up from our visit to Cornell. A bit of tension with the CS students. There is tons of stress with amongst UCB students… though they seem quite pleased once they graduate and forget everything. I have two friends whose kids have completed their undergrad or are graduating this year and now their views have changed 100 percent from why did they not join another school, to its the best place and they are glad that they went to UC B!
When I went on D1’s college hunt I noticed lots of students at good schools were stressed.
I remember particularly, Haverford, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, talking to the students, the tour guides, they all
seemed stressed, complained about tons of work, etc.
It was an eye opener for me. I had thought my alma mater had some sort of monopoly on that.
Not so, evidently. “There is no such thing as a free lunch”, it seems…
My D2, attending my same university, was a lot less stressed.
Differences were: she is smarter than I am, has better work habits, and was not studying in a STEM field.
I have had the privilege of knowing Cal, Michigan, Cornell, and Carnegie Mellon from very close quarters. Own children, nephew and nieces attended these places. Great universities, good reaerch opportunities, excellent placement records- all kinds of positive attributes can be mentioned about any of these universities.
CM and Cal: Has the best recognition for academic rigor. College Town & Campus life- on these accounts they are perceived less attractive less exciting!
Cornell: Campus look is the best. Has the Ivy tag but not strong enough when it competes with CM, Cal, and Michigan in CS and Engineering programs. In fact, even the business school for undergrad is not viewed as eqal to Haas or Ross.
I don’t think, high school students or their parents any longer focus on the Ivy tag alone! The reason being the placement track record of the other 3 universities seem to be better. Also, Michigan, Cal, and CM are better fits for research oriented students.
While I was talking to a friend of mine, who has spent all his life teaching, said something which could be true!
Attend Ivy league for liberal arts and sciences at undergrad level, business, law for grad level. You are ready to be the top 1%.
Large Research Univerisites like Cal and Michigan for engineering at undergrad level and all programs for grad level.
I know, it is a perceoption, may not be very far from the reality!
