Williams, Pomona, UC Berkeley, U Mich, Cornell, USC all for CS

My son applied to a lot of schools and he seems to have had a lucky streak. Not only did he get in, he got Regents, and other merit scholarships. More results coming this Wednesday. That will only make things even more difficult. Each school has its pros and cons. I want to compare the academics assuming financing is not an issue.
Also culturally I understand the differences of the various universities… this question is mostly focused on the academic opportunities. Want it to be inspiring, challenging and I dont want to be a number but most probably Regents at Cal will help with course selection and a mentor? He also got Regents at several UCs but we can keep it to Berkeley for this discussion… unless someone really wants to push for Santa Barbara, Davis, UCLA etc.

  1. Will research opportunities suffer at the smaller schools such as Pomona and Williams
  2. UC berkeley over U Mich… in terms of academics and opportunities I understand U Berkeley is great for Grad school but is also better for Under grad than U Mich. CS
  3. How does Cornell compare with the 2 big state schools:UC Berkeley and U Mich for CS.

I forgot to mention USC…not sure where to put that on the list. Again he has a very generous offer from them too.

If money is not an issue go where there is a better fit. You don’t have any bad choices and stay away from ranking of programs. They are all about the same. Also just ask him, what kind of school does he want to go to? There is a big difference from Berkeley and Michigan to Williams and Pomona. If anything it might help to start crossing out some schools. If you can visit that would help. It’s hard to view schools from pictures and you tube and get a true sense to the environment. Also there are mentors, help with selections etc at all schools… That shouldn’t be a deciding factor…

When it comes to the strengths of their respective CS departments and placement in major tech firms, I would say Cal is best, followed by Cornell and Michigan.

Thanks so much for the rpely

Are the costs actually equal? It seems you got merit from some but not others (well, Williams, Pomona, and Cornell don’t offer any at all). Could you please describe the costs associated with each?

reply!

He wants to have that close relationship with the professor, but not be in too small a school. Because Pomona belongs to the Claremont group and he can access to Harvey Mudd courses through Pomona. He applied to Pomona and not to Harvey Mudd which has a less flexible schedule than Pomona. But he has to figure that out the research opportunities.

He visited Williams - … small school He loved the thought that the prof sits down with the students and really connects with them. But what about the research opportunities that he will get in California?

He like Michigan… loved the whole campus and the huge variety of things to do on Campus and that there was lots of everything… culture, courses, city town etc etc. They were all invited for a weekend and he loved it. As a special scholar, he would get some preferential treatment regarding research but he was not clear exactly how it would play out. There would still be large class sizes.

He similary enjoyed USC. Similar invite to check out the campus. He thought he would get more attention than a large school like U Mich. They have a decent AI dept. The school is best known for its games or gaming program. He is not so interested in that part of CS. However the campus is not as interesting as Michigan. Free prescreenings and rubbing shoulders with celebrities, he did not care about that too much. But he would stay with the honors students and they seemed like very nice people. So he liked USC too!!!

Then Cornell, he felt was large for a private school but it also had great research opportunities and of course a bigger name.

Then UC Berkeley… actually he visited it one time. He was a little concerned about the impersonal nature with the class size for the first couple of years but perhaps Regents makes a difference. He needs to find out how much of a difference. Berkeley CS does not have that community feel like Michigan… though it has a bigger name.

He worked on a science fellowship last summer and there he met some people working on super projects and was blown away. I thought he should have applied to MIT but for whatever reason he did not apply there. Not that he was a shoe in but now looking at how good things have been so far, may be he would have. He can always apply for a transfer… if things dont work out too well at any of the colleges but hopefully they will. Yes finally he will get a feel for what is important to him.

Cornell did offer a small amount but not the other two. However, I want to keep the costs out of the equation for the discussion. We can always factor in the costs, once we decide what appeals to us. It is easy to compare the costs.

USC, Michigan, UCs all offer different amounts and then he received scholarships from other colleges too which I have not mentioned on this list as they are clearly out… Amherst etc.

UMich is the most, USC close second, Regents only tuition … not housing and food, access to on campus housing, and preferential treatment during enrollment.

Cornell he got a small amt but with the fellowship he gets access to special research, summer programs, social and academic lunches etc.

What is your cheapest option?

Why do you want to know what is the cheapest option? I am seeking advice without regard to the cost.

I think I already spelled that out on my 5:15 post. U Mich they pay for everything, USC almost everything, UCs … they only pay for tuition, I believe… not a hundred percent sure. My son has been managing everything and the on line offers, go directly to his portal… I am waiting for the snail mail versions to read some of them! One result is only coming on Wed/Thursday… but again, I am seeking people’s opinion on the academic quality and not on the cost. My son can decide to weigh in on the benefits of the perks versus the costs. I am not seeking that advice.

I was looking just at the academic merits of the program… not the costs or the cultural dynamic as he has already done that… visited the places. He is getting a second opinion on the merits of the CS program of the universities.

Honestly, just don’t see a big difference in the cs opportunities at the schools you mentioned. But the larger schools might have better research abilities. I would forget the perks also. At least at Michigan if he wants research just look up some professors your interested in and ask to do research with them. Sometimes people just over complicate this. There are amazing things being studied at all universities.

My daughter goes to a small university with under 2,000 "students. She likes the one on one and that her professors know her first name. She likes being invited over to her professors houses for dinner or tea and dessert. She loves the small classes of 15 students.

But that doesn’t mean at a large university you can’t get to know your professors. You just go to their office hours. Yes large classes but then you break down to smaller groups to go over material.

My son gets emails daily about special meetings and academic lectures etc etc. I think there actually could be too many things to go to.

My son could not find a club or group that had the technology he wanted so he and some other students formed their own. In a very short period of time they got two grants, have alumni and other companies reaching out to them and have over 100 students that have joined and they put on two meetings a month and he has had the ability to present to the group.

At least at Michigan, you can do or be what you want to. It seems the school goes out of their way for their students to be successful.

Sounds like he likes U of M the most, and he got a named scholarship (which can help him stand out for competitive tech jobs and internships). Large classes in CS are kind of the norm at most major universities due to the demand. I don’t think USC will give much more individual attention than U of M.

I went to Pomona and am familiar with many CS majors (it’s our second most popular major), so I can talk about experiences regarding it. Many CS majors turn down famous schools like Cornell, Berkeley, Mellon, etc to come to Pomona because they desired a well-rounded liberal arts college experience. Pomona does not admit by major, so a student could study whatever they wanted among its offerings, regardless of what they listed on the application. This fosters an especially interdisciplinary and exploratory perspective which is tougher to find at a big university.

Class sizes are a big difference. 0% of classes at Pomona are over 50 students, compared to 10-20% at the other schools. He’ll be on first name terms with every professor he takes a course with and even many he never does. It’s a system made possible with the small classes and exclusive focus on undergraduates. On the same end, Pomona has nowhere the course selection and broad research interests of the larger schools, even when nearby Harvey Mudd is added. If he is looking for a broad CS degree, Pomona will serve him just fine, but if he wants a specialized track or courses within a specific field, it might not be possible at Pomona.

Research is very easy to come by at Pomona. Access is not the issue. I would guess a higher percent of Pomona students participate in research than students at the larger school. The opportunities are designed to be in close advising with a Pomona professor, and help students find the maturity/skillset to do independent work for graduate school. Every year, about 10-20% of the CS majors from Pomona go to graduate school, pretty much all of which are elite (MIT is the most common destination), and I think the level of rapport helps for writing dynamic letters of recommendations. More Pomona students win NSF graduate fellowships, Goldwaters, and Churchills (the top science undergrad distinctions) than most of the schools you referenced, despite the former being much, much smaller. You can’t get those without being a strong STEM student and established, distinctive undergrad research, so clearly the students are coming out well-prepared. The challenge is that by its nature of being a small school/department, you will not see the breadth of research interests at Pomona. Mudd adds more professors with their own research interests, but still much smaller even when combined. The emphasis is not on producing publications or innovation as might be the case for graduate level universities (though it’s certainly possible to get published- many of my CS majors have). Students mitigate that by applying to REUs and summer opportunities at other schools, but someone could prefer being with a professor well-aligned with their topic for all four years.

The other 80-90% go straight into the workforce, which is the popular option with a CS degree. On-campus recruiting for tech jobs is very strong. Mudd is the home base for tech recruiting across all the colleges. I can’t think of a single CS major who wasn’t able to land a job or internship at a prominent tech company. As it goes in general, it’s important to build a portfolio of key side projects, learn outside the classroom, prepare for the technical interview, and whatnot, but there is a network of alumni and a close collaboration among students making success easy to come by. The connections for U of M and Berkeley and Cornell will be easier to identify, but Pomona and Mudd are surprisingly strong (the latter ranked #2 for presence of alumni working in Silicon Valley per capita, after Stanford).

I was admitted to UT Austin, which is also a major university with just a silver platter of opportunities, the ideal location, etc. I visited and felt that it was overwhelmingly large, preferring the close-knit intimacy of Pomona. Many students will find Pomona and Williams to be a suffocatingly tiny. They don’t want the high-touch experience (my best friend went to Berkeley. He called Pomona “coddled”). It totally depends on your S’s personality and thoughts on the differences in perspectives among these schools.

My gut instinct based on what you wrote is he likes U of M the best, not to mention it’s the cheapest option. Berkeley/Cornell are more prestigious, but not so much more that it’d be a detriment to pick U of M. I’ll let other informed posters discuss specifics regarding the curriculum at each school. Thought I could say a little about the LAC side of things!

I should also mention- CS is over-saturated at Mudd, Pomona, and Williams. These schools do not admit by majors, so when CS became the next hot ticket degree, they all were faced with unprecedented demand. There are now lotteries for some of the upper division courses. No one is locked out to pursue it, and they accommodate to ensure students graduate within 4 years, but it is not a desirable setting. All three schools are trying to hire more CS faculty members, but it’s a tough market with many schools around the nation seeing the same interest and not enough PhDs/experienced teachers for all the job openings.

I have not heard the same for the large universities, which usually selectively pick their CS students. This could be a big pro for them. But it adds some competition too (hard GPA requirement at Berkeley L&S to be admitted in the CS program, for example). Is he EECS for Berkeley?

Thanks for the reply!

I appreciate what you said about the connection to MIT. My son does love to go in depth and craves that one on one connection. Currently he is working on a paper with a PH D student he met at a Stanford machine learning conference. They seemed to hit it off. MY son a junior at high school and this student in his second or third year of his Ph D. A very fine mentor. My son works on his own and experiments with the code. He brings up different problems and readings and then they take it to the next level, create new variables or whatever. They will soon be ready to publish I think… I dont know. One never knows! He also likes to have downtime… it is important to his sanity In some ways, he manages his time well, I think and gets a lot done. He likes his cross country for two hours every day. It is kind of zen, social and peaceful. Very relaxing. On Friday evening with friends. They hang out in our backyard … make a fire, roast marshmellows and sing songs or play indoor games. Then he likes to do his independent projects… program his drone or try to find algorithms for something and then of course there is school in the bg. High School fortunately, he has worked it into bite size components and not sure how but he squeezes it in somehow. So Pomona could be a good fit for him. But he does like U of M. Two extremes. So much choice. and yes I think they have created a little bit of a special feeling.

“He similary enjoyed USC. Similar invite to check out the campus. He thought he would get more attention than a large school like U Mich.“

USC is a large school as well. Not every private school is small.