<p>yes, I know this is a strange pair to be comparing, but I'm pretty sure this is what my choices will come down to. The issue is that I've been accepted to Oberlin's double degree program with the conservatory and the college. If I go there, I'd get a bachelors of music in performance along with a BA in some combination of English and "law and society". Plus, they're giving me approximately 16,000 in merit scholarships, which is tempting when I'm pretty positive I'm going to grad school of some sort, most likely law.
On the other hand, I love a lot of Williams programs and it has a better overall reputation (though not for music) and record of grad school placement. Students at Williams have a reputation for being more "normal." I'd also love to study abroad and take tutorials, which wouldn't be possible at Oberlin. However, I'd be paying full tuition. Any suggestions?</p>
<p>Hmmph... That's a tough one. </p>
<p>Studying abroad complements a liberal arts education nicely. This would definitely not be possible at Oberlin?</p>
<p>Many Oberlin students study abroad, often in the very same programs as Williams students. I don't understand...is this some roadblock specific to the dual-degree program? If so, that happens at all schools. For example, it is often difficult for engineering/science majors to study abroad due to required courses, etc.</p>
<p>I'm wondering why you want the performance degree if your career plans are heading in a direction other than music. It's true that W doesn't have a performance degree, but it does have a fine music dept, the opportunity to play in the Berkshire Symphony, etc. I would agree that there is a marked difference in the personalities of the two schools.</p>
<p>yes, the issue with studying abroad is the double degree aspect. it's technically a 5 year program, but with ap credits i could squeeze everything into 4. This wouldn't allow me time to study abroad during the school year, especially if I want to do a double major or a major and a minor in the college. At williams I'd have more freedom with my schedule since I wouldn't be getting two degrees.
I'm not entirely sure if I'm going to want to play in a symphony orchestra or anything, but I definitely want to keep my options open, even if it's just to play in chamber groups etc.</p>
<p>I'd head to williams. Unless music is exactly what you want to do, Williams is the better ticket overall, especially if you prefer a "normal" student body.</p>
<p>I can speak to these issues. I went to Williams, where I played Berkshire Symphony and was a bit of a music department rat, and am a lawyer. </p>
<p>Your decision may be one of the few in which I would pause in choosing Williams over another college (especially a liberal arts college). This may be because several of my Williams professors went to Oberlin (it has an excellent record for getting students into doctoral programs), and because Oberlin's music program is significantly superior to Williams's. </p>
<p>Having said this, I think your choice really should be based on your future goals. If you are, at age 17 or 18 (I say this with an arched brow - I must have changed my top interests and aspirations ten times since that time), quite sure that you want to major AND continue to perform in music, then I would pick Oberlin. Williams's Berkshire Symphony is unique (our conductor was a cellist with the Boston Symphony and half the musicians were professionals from Albany and elsewhere), and the visiting artists were often extraordinary (I will never forget sitting on stage while the Emerson String Quartet played), but I don't think Williams's classical music department is as vibrant as, say, the art department. (One major exception is theater and dance - the New York City Ballet has been known to do residencies in Williamstown, and there is an opulent new theater and dance facility; plus the Williamstown summer theater festival is perhaps the best summer stock in the nation; and there's some institutional history or ethos in this area; Stephen Sondheim and William Finn are top Broadway composer/lyricist alums). I will say that the music department has excellent standard courses in music theory, composition, and history, which would be perfectly adequate to fill out a major or as a complement to other interests. You can get pursue a top music career from Williams - e.g. one of my classmates now teaches music history at Yale. But the college has not emphasized music performance (as you note it simply is not a conservatory); IMO Williams needs to retain a few more renowned artists in residence as instructors to improve its music performance teaching. (Especially if you don't play the piano.) If you expect Juilliard-level chamber music partners or performance instructors, don't go to Williams. </p>
<p>Now, if you are possibly interested in law or another profession, Williams would probably provide a significant advantage over Oberlin assuming your record would be the same at each. A recent Wall Street Journal study ranked Williams fifth in the nation among all colleges AND universities in admission to top professional schools, including law. (I would not necessarily say the same if you pursue a humanities doctorate; Oberlin excels there although I suspect a Williams grad who pursues a PhD in humanities would do equally well or better.)</p>
<p>As to "normal" student body: what's normal? You'll find normal at both places, and you'll learn more from those you might now consider abnormal. That's the beauty of college life. </p>
<p>Bottom line: if you are 99% sure that a sizable chunk of your college waking hours will be spent in classical music--consider Oberlin (and sounds like the price is right). If you want to diversify and pursue a non-music career, do consider Williams seriously. And even if you switch these frames, you still won't go too wrong.</p>
<p>wow, miktrebor, thank you so much for such an awesome response! I really want to thank everyone for giving such thoughtful answers instead of what I've seen on a lot of other boards, blind allegiance to one school or another. I just got back from visiting williams, and I love it even more now. We'll see after I visit oberlin next week where I finally decide to go.</p>
<p>I'm another person with a music dilemma, though I am deciding between Williams and the 5 year double degree program at Northwestern. My interests lie strongly in composing for musical theater, and despite Williams alumni Sondheim (50 years ago) and Finn (30 years ago), Northwestern has a lot more going on in that arena.</p>
<p>I have already decided to go to williams, but since this is relevant to the thread, does anyone know anything about jazz at williams? I know they have the williamstown jazz festival and i met with professor jaffe, who directs the big band. Are there a lot of students at williams interested in jazz, whether in an academic sense or just for fun?
Ben</p>
<p>so I decided on williams!!! I'll see everyone in the fall!</p>
<p>Congratulations on a great choice!
I agree about the quality of this board and it's posters. They were a tremendous help to my daughter. She was admitted ED, with assistance and advice from some of those who replied to your query.</p>
<p>Urgent! I'm also deciding between Williams and Oberlin. As rhapsodynshadow says, a strange pair to compare. I don't have financial or musical reasons to be torn, I just like both schools a lot and just got off the wait list at Williams. I'm into English, especially writing. I like exercise/sports/outdoors but it's by no means an obsession and I'm not at all a jock. Basic concern is whether people at Williams are interesting. I know you all do a lot of extracurrics, but does it feel like everyone's the same? I don't know enough "Ephs" to be able to judge.</p>
<p>I would think there is probably more diversity in the student body among Ephs compared to Obies. In Ephland you'll find jocks, geeks, hippies, intellectuals, partiers, conservatives, ultra-liberals. My sense is that, at Oberlin folks tend to be much more similar than different.</p>
<p><<< Urgent! I'm also deciding between Williams and Oberlin. As rhapsodynshadow says, a strange pair to compare. I don't have financial or musical reasons to be torn, I just like both schools a lot and just got off the wait list at Williams. I'm into English, especially writing. I like exercise/sports/outdoors but it's by no means an obsession and I'm not at all a jock. Basic concern is whether people at Williams are interesting. I know you all do a lot of extracurrics, but does it feel like everyone's the same? I don't know enough "Ephs" to be able to judge. >>></p>
<p>Not everyone will be the same at either school. You will be able to find friends with like interests. I will say that, at Williams, the "jock" issue is somewhat overblown. It is true that, for whatever reason, the admissions committee is invested in maintaining very competitive Division III athletic teams. This is true with most NESCAC liberal arts colleges - Amherst and Williams both give comparable numbers of "tips" to athletes [and by the way, we're talking Division III athletes here - they have got to do well academically to be admitted - my one football acquaintance was an English major like me and, as I recall, waxed eloquently about Ibsen and Beckett in our modern drama class - this is probably the one school where the quarterback may have done better than you in high school] - it just so happens that Williams got on an athletic hot streak in the '80s and '90s and as a result more easily attracts athletes than other LAC's, creating a little snowball effect. This image, in my opinion, is both good and bad. It's good that it fosters school spirit, and what's more we must have the brainiest scholars who can also whack a tennis ball or form a scrum in the country. It's primarily bad if it detracts non-athletes from attending because they think the school is too athletic. That is simply not true. I think probably five percent of my Eph friends relied on sports as their primary extracurricular activity. The rest eschewed sports altogether, unless you count a lazy hike now and then. You will also find a certain percentage of students who hang out with mostly athletes. They are easily avoided, except those that demonstrated interesting qualities (a lot of them, actually). </p>
<p>I'm a writer too. Like most LAC's, Williams has an excellent English department. One professor, Jim Shepard, is an excellent novelist and is quite sought after as a speaker at writing conferences; I hear he was recruited to direct the Iowa Writers' Workshop not too long ago (he didn't go there, obviously). The other standout is Louise Gluck, who is a former poet laureate and has won the Pulitzer. The rest of the English department has traditionally been excellent. A lot of them were married to each other, so you got two for one when they had you over for dinner.</p>
<p>As mentioned to Rhapsody (see other posts), I wouldn't choose a college for a single department unless you are pretty sure that subject is your life calling. I started out wanting to be a political science major; my tune changed halfway through my first year. The quality of the overall educational program is very important. I would give Williams the nod over Oberlin in this regard, mostly because I believe the intellectual heft of the overall student body is probably higher. But there are plenty of exceptions, and I am sure there are Oberlin students and faculty who would knock the socks off anyone at Williams. Good luck!</p>
<p>I visited both the schools, and to be honest it was the visit that decided me. everyone at Oberlin seemed really into themselves and really caught up in being "different." For example, my host basically dropped us off at the room and left. When I visited the conservatory, people barely said hi. Williams was a completely different story. People were all very friendly, but that doesn't mean they were all the same. Not remotely. They just didn't parade their differences like they were their defining qualities. I just felt it fit me perfectly.</p>
<p>Suggestions?
Ask Williams for Financial Aid. Make your case and you may be surprised at the results.
The worst possible answer is $0. Then, move on to another elite college.
Ultimately, the best answer is to go where you find your best fit, ignoring the money. (Unless of course some elite college offers you full $$).</p>
<p>this is just my observation of one day of visiting oberlin and one day at williams, so it obviously is not definitive and in no way do I mean to stereotype oberlin or williams students. however, for the emphasis on vegetarianism on oberlin's campus I thought it was weird how many people were on the heavier side and seemed to not care about hygiene. I don't consider myself athletic at all, but I felt like trying to stay in shape was somewhat unusual at oberlin.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for their insights on the williams/oberlin! Now I'm leaning very very far toward Williams, but I'm just gonna make some phone calls before I call in my response to Admissions on Monday.</p>