Winnowing college list/Competitiveness for elite colleges & merit scholarships

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>My S is a NMSF and is planning to major in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. He's a senior this year and will be applying this fall (I know, we are behind the 8 ball). I'm looking for any advice regarding compiling his college list.</p>

<p>Stats:
ACT 35 (math/science 36)
SAT 1 2270 (Math 800, CR 720, W 750)
SAT 2 Math II, Bio, Physics, Chem (all 800's), US Hist (760)
Unweighted GPA 4.0
Weighted GPA 4.4 (?? not really sure)
Rank: maybe 8 out of 600?
Rigor: 9 AP's so far (seven 5's on math/science/APUSH and two 4's on Engl/World Hist.)
Sr Year: 5 AP's (Engl, Gov, Macro, Psych, For. Lang.) + mandatory arts class + lin alg @ CC
Research: none
Essays: not too sure how stellar they'll be since he doesn't like writing them
Letters of Rec: I know that his teachers think highly of him but they probably don't know him very well, just what they see of him in class.</p>

<p>Preferences: Willing to geographically go anywhere in the continental US. Not extremely hot (and prefers dry heat over muggy humidity). Doesn't think he'll mind cold/snow. Likes an urban, suburban, or college town environment. Not too remote. UC Davis is rather too rural/agrarian for him. But other than these few preferences, he mostly cares about the learning environment in his intended majors. Also wants a research institution and not too small (Harvey Mudd is too small.)</p>

<p>We will probably only qualify for significant financial aid from the most generous of the Ivies so I want to make sure that he also applies to some schools that give significant merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Several websites of colleges that offer significant merit scholarships say that they're looking for: scholarship, leadership, character, and service.</p>

<p>Scholarship -- Beyond stats, this is where he's strongest with USAMO (1x) and USJAMO (2x) qualifier, USACO Finalist/camp participant (top 25 nationally), Physics Semi-Finalist 3x (top few hundred nationally), NACLO top 20 nationally (computational linguistics olympiad) and various random math competition and science olympiad awards. Also attended COSMOS summer science camp this past summer and math camp last summer.</p>

<p>Leadership -- Jobs for pay: taught USACO computer programming class, tutored algebra student, wrote solutions to AIME-level and USAMO-level problem sets, wrote AMC 10-level problem sets, taught AMC 10 class at summer camp. EC: organized regional math competition at his high school as math club officer. Currently organizing the first ever puzzle hunt at his HS. Mentored/led younger students at summer math camp.</p>

<p>Service -- Weakest here. Participated in 2 two-week service trips during his freshman and soph summers. Helped with middle school math club his freshman year. Volunteered as a math tutor/teacher his frosh/soph year. Nothing his jr year nor this past summer. I guess he segued into paying jobs. </p>

<p>Character -- He has lots of character but not sure how to show it unless one wants to count 4 hrs per week involvement in church youth group. Also does two sports all throughout high school. Shows perseverance and commitment and hard work?</p>

<p>Asking for your advice re:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Thoughts re: S's competitiveness at HPMSC and CMU (I know that everyone has high stats and that for Ivies/elites you need amazing WOW factor in your EC's). Not sure if he has amazing enough ECs and, as noted above, he's especially weak on community service.</p></li>
<li><p>Thoughts re: S's chances for competitive scholarships from OOS public ivies, etc. (Michigan, Illinois, Duke, Rice, GA Tech, UMD, UVA, etc.). Ditto re: WOW factor. He does not like to write essays so I hesitate to encourage him to apply to all/any of these if he probably doesn't have the muscle to get offered any of these scholarships. Without significant merit $$, he's not likely to attend any of these. OTOH, I'm not sure if his USA Math/CS Olympiad accomplishments would be attractive enough to garner any merit $$ or not.</p></li>
<li><p>Thoughts re: the more stats-based merit scholarships. He's thinking Minnesota - Twin Cities, Ariz. State, and maybe USC (still $38,000 even with the NMF schol so more expensive than any of the UC's for him). I was thinking I should encourage him to also consider Michigan State and Ohio State? He looked at UMD-College Park, Univ of Ariz, and Rutgers websites and comparatively didn't like the looks of their CS program. He liked Texas A & M's program but thinks that it's way too hot. Sigh...</p></li>
<li><p>Any other suggestions for where to apply for engineering-specific merit scholarships? (I looked at JHU but he has no research/science fair/inventor experience.)</p></li>
<li><p>For anyone intimately familiar w/ the UC's: how deeply should we apply to be "safe"? Definitely UCB, UCLA, UCSD and maybe UCD. He didn't really care for UCI and UCSB when we visited but they both have good programs in his intended majors. Acceptances are so unpredictable now and, come spring, I'd really like for him to have at least one UC on the table. And CA state schools? We haven't made it out to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo yet. And SJ State is supposed to also have a good program and I hear that all of their graduates get snapped up by the Silicon Valley companies. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I guess I don't have a feel for what's a good safety for him in this unpredictable environment and how many we should apply to. I hear stories of kids with one B getting shut out of UCB, UCLA, UCSD, and UCD!</p>

<p>Also, given that neither my husband nor I have any background in engineering nor CS, we've relied heavily on USNWR and parents on CC (especially ones from the engineering forum who sound like they frequently interview/hire for job openings).</p>

<p>Also, I'm posting this on the engineering forum because of his interest in EE and because that's where it seems like more scholarship $$ is; but his primary pursuit will be CS. So he'd like a school with a broad and deep CS program that is probably located within the engineering school.</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post. Any advice that any of you can give would be much appreciated!</p>

2

<p>Congratulations to your son for his accomplishments in HS. It really is amazing to earn As in every class and to score so well on the SATs. The academic rigor, grades and SAT scores will ensure his acceptance at a fair number of universities. The big question though is whether he will receive merit aid to make the price competitive or cheaper than in-state CA options. Personally, I think his best option may be to stay in the CA system because they have good CS programs and there will be many Silicon Valley companies recruiting locally. </p>

<p>I do have a few observations based upon our experience with CS program applications. Both of my sons are now in CS but had grades and SAT scores that were at least one tier lower than yours (e.g., 760 math and same or lower on CR). They did, however, have significant leadership roles and experiences to draw upon for essays.</p>

<p>Our experience with merit aid was mixed. Private universities sometimes would discount the tuition with minimal requirements. I didn’t consider these discounts to be the same as merit because we didn’t really have to do much to get the aid. They either wanted him as a student and were trying to get him to accept or they didn’t offer the merit aid. We didn’t qualify for any need-based aid. Public universities required essays for any offer of merit aid. We received a substantial amount from UMD College Park but none from Georgia Tech. Looking over the various merit aid/discounts we discovered that while prices had come down for the OOS options the in-state universities were still more attractive. Both attend Virginia Tech and have received merit aid. </p>

<p>We know some absolutely amazing students at CMU, MIT, Yale etc. Their stats were similar to your sons but they had some extra WOW factors to their resumes. None received any merit aid and are pay full sticker (many of the HYMSC type colleges seem to put most emphasis on financial aid)</p>

3

<p>Do you mean to say that UCs and CSUs are affordable at in-state list price, but more expensive schools would not be unless there were scholarships that brought them down to UC price?</p>

<p>Since UCs use holistic review with essays, it is hard to find a completely safe safety, although with the given stats, it is likely that UCB, UCLA, and UCSD would be matches (in engineering divisions or majors; non-engineering divisions/majors may be somewhat easier to gain admission to), and most of the others would be low match / near safety. Is UCSC of any interest (near Silicon Valley)?</p>

<p>Of the CSUs, it is hard to see a student with these stats not getting in, but since most are impacted and do not publish admission thresholds beforehand, it is hard to say 100% sure that they are safeties. But with an ACT-based CSU EI of about 1210 and an SAT-based CSU EI of about 4960, it is hard to see rejection happening – see SJSU’s recent thresholds: [Info.sjsu.edu[/url</a>]. CPSLO is more selective (and adds some other criteria to the CSU EI), but it is still hard to see rejection happening there.</p>

<p>Here is a shopping list for merit money:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships-20.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships-20.html](<a href=“http://info.sjsu.edu/static/admission/impaction.html]Info.sjsu.edu[/url”>http://info.sjsu.edu/static/admission/impaction.html)</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1461983-competitive-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships-4.html#post16224918[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1461983-competitive-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships-4.html#post16224918&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation-55.html#post16379939[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/national-merit-scholarships/649276-nmf-scholarships-updated-compilation-55.html#post16379939&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Note that some out-of-state public schools’ list prices may not be much more than in-state UC list price. Minnesota, NCSU, Virginia Tech, and Stony Brook are examples.</p>

4

<p>Re: finances. We always planned for him to be able to afford a UC education with working summers and 8 - 10 hours a week during the academic year – so $30,000 per year with no debt. If he goes to a tuition free/NMF scholarship-type school, the $$ can stretch to grad school if he wants or he wouldn’t have to work during college. If he gets into a more expensive private and decides to go there, he’s looking at loans to make up a bulk of the difference.</p>

<p>Financial Aid: We don’t expect to get much except from the most generous elites (HYPS and possibly CMU). From what I understand, MIT, Caltech, and Cornell are significantly less generous so those look a lot less attractive. Won’t qualify for any in-state aid.</p>

<p>Re: Univ. Santa Clara – I haven’t really looked into this school. I figured that if he applies to a private, it should be a top brand name school to make the probable loans worth the $$ gap between it and a UC. Do you think that I should look into U. S. Clara?</p>

<p>UCBalumnus: From an employer’s/industry perspective, what about Alabama’s reputation in the EECS field? Is it pretty non-existent? I ask because their NMF offer is very attractive but I don’t see them on the top 100 of USNWR.</p>

5

<p>UCBalumnus: After re-reading your post, sorry, you meant UC Santa Cruz, not Univ. Santa Clara, didn’t you? </p>

<p>Since my husband and I have no first-hand familiarity with EECS, we’re mostly going with the USNWR rankings. So, unless we have reason to think otherwise, the higher the ranking, the more he’s interested; and vice versa. That’s where “how deeply does he need to apply to be ‘safe’?” comes in. So he’s less interested in UCSC if it’s highly likely that he’ll get into one of the other already mentioned UC’s.</p>

6

<p>Cal - Your son sounds like a top student that will do well and find a job regardless of the school. Don’t get too hung up on exact ratings - just use it as a general guide. Look for a school that is a good fit and is affordable. </p>

<p>It sounds like your son has a decent shot at CMU. Run the Net Price Caculator - there are no merit scholarships, and you may find it comes in much higher than $30K/year. Same for many privates.</p>

7

<p>Have you taken a look at Case Western? Great engineering/computer science and gives some generous aid- especially with your S’s stats…</p>

8

<p>Ditto Case Western for merit aid. Also consider RPI, Northeastern, WPI, RIT, U. Rochester. When looking for merit aid you need to cast a wide net. Likely to get some at all these schools but hard to predict how much.
I’m surprised you think MIT and Cornell are not good with need-based aid. Have you run the net price calculators on those?</p>

9

<p>Yes, meant UCSC. SCU is rather more expensive…</p>

<p>While he may not “need” to apply to that many UCs, the only real cost to apply to more is the application fee. Given that several may be 90+% chance, but not 100% chance, of admission, applying to all of those which are acceptable reduces the chance of getting into none. Of course, getting into none is not a complete disaster, since there is the well-worn (in California) community-college-and-then-transfer route which can function as a safety at the frosh admissions level.</p>

<p>Regarding Alabama and such – they probably don’t get as much non-local/regional recruiting as more well known schools. A student there may have to do more of his/her own work to find and apply to non-local/regional employers. Alabama’s local/regional employers are probably heavily automotive and aerospace (NASA).</p>

10

<p>BeanTownGirl: Is RIT Rochester Institute of Technology? </p>

<p>Thanks for all of the advice. We’ll definitely look into all of these. Of all the ones mentioned so far plus U Minnesota, Texas A & M, U Arizona, Ariz State, Pitt, Rutgers, U Maryland-CP are there any others where he’d need to worry when he’s ready to graduate and get a job regarding mostly local/regional employer recruiting? Or recruiting for a different type of engineering and not EECS?</p>

11

<p>All universities have some local bias in the employers that they attract. Berkeley and Stanford happen to be local to Silicon Valley (but so are SJSU, UCSC, and SCU), which provides an extra boost in recruiting for EE and CS majors interested in working in Silicon Valley companies (particularly smaller ones).</p>

12

<p>These days it seem engineering job opportunities are greatly enhanced by good internship/co-op experience. Since students at the top of the class typically have the best shot at primo internship/co-ops… there could be some advantage to attending a good fit but non-stretch school.</p>

13

<p>My D2012 (high-stats, good ECs including state/national-level STEM) applied in engineering to many the schools OP listed. She was accepted almost everywhere she applied, including all three top-tier UCs. Santa Clara offered her a half-tuition scholarship, plus some other sweeteners, bringing the cost down to just below UCs. NMSF got her half-tuition at USC. Merit aid at the other schools was limited to a few thousand dollars, at most. I think that applicants who are ineligible for FA need to dig quite a bit lower in the prestige scale to get significant amounts of merit aid.</p>

<p>Also note that Duke & Rice are private, and should not be grouped with OOS public ivies.</p>

14

<p>MIT does not give merit based aid. Aid is by need only. My experience (and it was a while ago) was that they were quite generous with their need based aid. But MIT is always one of the most expensive schools, so the starting point for aid is rather high, MIT is a private, not state school, so in-state verses out-of-state doesn’t matter. I recall that several other top end schools take the same approach. </p>

<p>Pick the schools that your son (and you) think would be the best fit and apply (but don’t get attached to any particular one), apply for FA and see what comes back. Then make your choice. </p>

<p>Do pay attention to the 4 year grad rates as some of the CA state schools have poor 4 year grad rates. They are good schools but class availability is an issue and has gotten worse lately with the state budget issues.</p>

15

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<p>Four year graduation rates tend to track admissions selectivity, indicating that most of the problem of late graduation is student-related (needing remedial courses, cannot handle full course loads, changing major late, failing courses).</p>

<p>Note that some of the schools with the lowest four year graduation rates (e.g. CSU campuses Pomona, Bakersfield, Fresno, San Bernardino, Stanislaus) have four year graduation pledge programs, where students agree to follow their major’s course plan and not need remedial courses in exchange for registration priority. But, given the low four year graduation rates at those schools, few students qualify or agree to those conditions.</p>

<p>An example of a four year pledge at a school with a four year graduation rate under 20%: [Graduation</a> Pledge | Academic Programs | Cal Poly Pomona](<a href=“http://www.csupomona.edu/~academic/programs/grad_pledge/index.shtml]Graduation”>http://www.csupomona.edu/~academic/programs/grad_pledge/index.shtml)</p>

<p>Note that some other schools outside California have similar programs. Minnesota has one, but its four year graduation rate is only about 55%.</p>

16

<p>Sometimes a lower 4-year graduation rate reflects credit requirements. For example, at Colorado School of Mines, some majors require 140+ credits. Also courses are quite rigorous, sometime requiring repeat to pass. Many students take 4.5 or 5 years pr more to finish. That’s a financial hit, especially for OOS students.</p>