Withdrawing from ED

Parents Forum
41

<p>"A number of schools are on record saying that ED is not a hard-and-fast contract, and others openly take students who have broken that "contract" elsewhere, on the grounds that ED itself is more ethically questionable than the breaking of ED."</p>

<p>The schools that I'm aware of that knowingly will take students who've backed out of an ED contract elsewhere are public institutions and some nonelite schools that may be delighted to accept a student who backed out of a much higher ranked school's contract. Schools of any ranking that highly value their own honor codes aren't likely to accept contract violators.</p>

<p>If the OP is somehow thinking that he'll end up at a place like Chicago, MIT, Stanford or Harvard after breaking his ED contract, that's unlikely. My belief is that the OP applied ED to Duke because he thought that was the best school that he could be accepted to, and he wanted the ED admissions advantage. I think he wants to back out now because he has seen some peer get into a college that he regards as being more desirable or prestigious than is Duke, and the OP thinks that college will accept him, too.</p>

42

<p>re: GC letters on applicant's "character",</p>

<p>there needs to be a code of ethics constraining GC's, who perform an already questionable job function. The GCs work for the school system and the students, not the colleges. It is utter presumption by both the colleges and the school to have GC or other school personnel writing letters speculating on applicants' character. But if one accepts that role, GC's comments should be strictly limited to what they have full knowledge of and happened within the school. Applicants' interaction with colleges, including possibly compelling reasons for breaking ED, are beyond the scope of GC's job functions and it would be quite unethical for a GC to base their work (or lack of work) on behalf of a student on such material.</p>

43

<p>I don't think we can help much w/o knowing the reasons that you feel you need to break your ED agreement. Care to be a little more forthcoming, OP?</p>

44

<p>Unless there are issues of finance, you apply ED knowing you will attend. If there is ANY doubt about that, you shouldn't apply and parents shouldn't sign -- because they are as much agreeing as is the student.</p>

<p>If it's just I don't want to be a blue devil.. well, I don't think Duke would cry too much foul but I am getting really sick of people thinking integrity and personal honor should only apply to other people. </p>

<p>What if Duke said.. ok, you're in ED and then next week said, you know we like some other dude better, you're out. Everyone would be freaking out and screaming foul. But when we, as individuals, do the same, we think the rules simply don't apply to us. What a joke.</p>

<p>Unless your financial situation has changed (in which case you can try to work something out with financial aid), you have made a contract to attend. That the repercussions aren't harsh enough to deter your lack of honor, that's something the OP will have to live with (and apparently fairly easily). And the truth is, if a lot of kids did this every year, ED is going to go flying out the window for everyone.</p>

45

<p>If I'm asked to write a letter of recommendation for someone I think has acted unethically, I would decline if I could. A GC may not be able to decline, and certainly known unethical behavior by the student could be revealed by the GC.</p>

<p>siserune, you may not like how colleges behave, but that has no impact on the colleges. You may not think breaking ED for a change of heart is unethical, but others obviously do, including quite possibly the OP's GC, who, after all, has to balance the needs of this one student against many other students.</p>

46

<p>The OP has posted plenty here and elsewhere indicating that he thinks that Duke is beneath him. What more does he need to say?</p>

47

<p>"A GC may not be able to decline, and certainly known unethical behavior by the student could be revealed by the GC."</p>

<p>A GC doesn't usually get to decline writing a recc (though I heard on CC about a GC who was allowed to decline writing reccs and helping with applications for a student who was applying to college after a post h.s gap year), but the GC does get to rate the student on things like integrity and character. The GC also can choose to write, for instance, a 3-line, bland recommendation or the GC can choose to include a line like, "If you'd like further information , please call,", and admissions officers know that such things indicate there's a major problem with that applicant, and admissions officers may call to get further info or may simply reject the applicant.</p>

48

<p>My last word on the subject. I try to teach my children that their word is their bond. You make a promise, you keep the promise, even if you regret the promise. I guess other parents on this list don't feel the same way.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
The OP has posted plenty here and elsewhere indicating that he thinks that Duke is beneath him. What more does he need to say?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Exactly. I was just hoping that the deafening silence would save much more expenditure of energy on this thread ;)</p>

50

<p>EMM!: Virtually all -- if not all --parents have told the OP to stand by his word.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]

[quote]
"A number of schools are on record saying that ED is not a hard-and-fast contract, and others openly take students who have broken that "contract" elsewhere, on the grounds that ED itself is more ethically questionable than the breaking of ED."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The schools that I'm aware of that knowingly will take students who've backed out of an ED contract elsewhere are public institutions and some nonelite schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The ranking is irrelevant to the fact that some admissions heads are on the record stating that ED itself is the ethical problem, to the point that they disregard violations of what they view as a dubious agreement. This appears to be not an extremist or particularly self-interested view, but part of a changing consensus on ED ranging from the "Early Admissions Game" study to the consequent dropping of early admission at Harvard, Princeton and others. </p>

<p>
[quote]
that may be delighted to accept a student who backed out of a much higher ranked school's contract.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The number of students who come as advertised ED violators is extremely small and not necessarily from higher rank schools, so it's not clear that gamesmanship is a factor here.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Schools of any ranking that highly value their own honor codes aren't likely to accept contract violators.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I recall USC was one example and some of its schools have honor codes. In addition, they were pushing to have a campuswide honor code but I don't know what became of that.</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
If I'm asked to write a letter of recommendation for someone I think has acted unethically, I would decline if I could. A GC may not be able to decline, and certainly known unethical behavior by the student could be revealed by the GC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A GC wouldn't know whether a given case of ED-breaking involves unethical behavior, because the GC isn't a party to the contract, doesn't have full knowledge of the applicant's actions and reasons, and is not "in the loop" for a transaction that occurs between the college and the applicant. Taking the college's word for it is not sufficient here, either, if they do happen to communicate with GC. </p>

<p>
[quote]
siserune, you may not like how colleges behave, but that has no impact on the colleges.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My comment was that an applicant <em>need not concern himself</em> with certain aspects of how colleges may or may not behave. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You may not think breaking ED for a change of heart is unethical,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I may or may not think so: I didn't comment on it either way. </p>

<p>One thing I do think and have posted, is that ED contracts involving financial aid are fundamentally ambiguous and thus not likely to be legally binding, and some schools acknowledge openly that they don't think the contract is enforceable or legally binding.</p>

<p>
[quote]
but others obviously do, including quite possibly the OP's GC, who, after all, has to balance the needs of this one student against many other students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That "balance against other students" is another term for "conflict of interest".</p>

53

<p>"The ranking is irrelevant to the fact that some admissions heads are on the record stating that ED itself is the ethical problem, to the point that they disregard violations of what they view as a dubious agreement. This appears to be not an extremist or particularly self-interested view, but part of a changing consensus on ED ranging from the "Early Admissions Game" study to the consequent dropping of early admission at Harvard, Princeton and others. "</p>

<p>I know that Harvard would not knowingly take a student who violated an ED contract. Some students learned this the hard way several years ago, when Harvard for one year allowed students who had applied EA to it also apply ED elsewhere.</p>

<p>"fter weeks of speculation that Harvard would allow students who had been accepted under binding Early Decision programs at other colleges to enroll at Harvard, the Office of Admissions and Financial Aid released a statement last week saying Harvard will honor the Early Decision system.</p>

<p>“It is our expectation that students admitted elsewhere under binding Early Decision will honor their previous commitment and not matriculate at Harvard,” the statement said.</p>

<p>While the statement “recommends” applying to Harvard under Regular Action “for students who are applying already to a binding Early Decision college and must withdraw from Harvard [and all other colleges] once admitted,” it did not make clear how the College would treat students who tried to break binding early commitments and attend Harvard.</p>

<p>But Director of Admissions Marlyn McGrath Lewis ’70-’73 said that if such a case arose, Harvard would “certainly consider rescinding their admission” and “will not allow the student to enroll.”
The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Early Decision Policy Clarified</p>

<p>"
At Harvard, director of Undergraduate Admissions Marlyn McGrath-Lewis noted that each year a few students - usually fewer than 10 - who were accepted into another school's early-decision program gain admission to Harvard during its regular-decision process.</p>

<p>In such cases, Harvard, like most other schools, will rescind its acceptances."
Admissions</a> | Early's out for elite schools, but 'double-dippers' not an issue - News</p>

<p>"Many colleges rescind acceptances if they discover bad faith. “If we find that you lied to us and applied to our regular action process holding an admission from an early binding place,” says Marlyn McGrath Lewis, admissions director at Harvard, “we would either not admit you or we would withdraw our offer.”</p>

<p>Some colleges, like Franklin & Marshall, exchange early-admit lists. Ms. Lewis says she throws away the lists sent to her. Who tips her off then? “We usually find out from alumni, classmates, lots of different ways. We have a couple every year and we withdraw their admission, not because we are enforcing some rule at another college, but because we can’t trust the student.”
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/education/edlife/strategy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

54

<p>I should have said "some other parents on this list."</p>

55

<p>"A GC wouldn't know whether a given case of ED-breaking involves unethical behavior, because the GC isn't a party to the contract, doesn't have full knowledge of the applicant's actions and reasons, and is not "in the loop" for a transaction that occurs between the college and the applicant. Taking the college's word for it is not sufficient here, either, if they do happen to communicate with GC. "</p>

<p>But if a student who applied and was accepted ED returns next fall to get the GC's help in applying elsewhere, the GC would know that the student didn't honor their commitment. Indeed, the GC may already have been informed of this by the ED college.</p>

<p>The GC can ask the student why, and also can contact the ED college, and the GC would be entitled to accept the college's word just like the GC would be entitled to accept a teacher's word that a student had cheated in class.</p>

<p>Many if not most GCs talk in depth with students who wish to apply ED because the GCs want to make sure that the students understand the implications of the contract. </p>

<p>Anyway, the content of the GC recc is up to the GC. Even if the recc is available for the student to look at, the GC still can call the college and verbally give any recc that the GC chooses to. </p>

<p>If the OP somehow thinks that he can back out of ED for no good reason and not have repercussions, he's kidding himself.</p>

56

<p>I, for a moment, thought the OP should just say he can't afford to go to Duke. Make it an issue of finance. That would be easy. Just lie about it - then everyone is happy.
But that would be dishonorable. Duke deserves to know honestly why this guys is changing his mind. </p>

<p>I am going to stand by my original advice and encourage him to call Duke and speak with them about his reservations. They won't arrest him or burn his house down or put a bounty out on him preventing him from attending the local CC.</p>

<p>When the OP applied ED he didn't necessarily lie. Perhaps he was coerced or not properly counseled. Perhaps he needs a year off before attending college - which is what I got out of the first post. Perhaps he has a career goal change and Duke doesn't have his major.
Perhaps he is mad Coach K couldn't win the tournament. </p>

<p>The point is - as soon as you make any excuse a good excuse - there is a gray area. </p>

<p>Northstarmom - I don't know where to find most GC's who counsel kids on applying ED. Perhaps those are relegated to the private schools with wealthy kids who benefit greatly by the ED bump.</p>

57

<p>Hey thanks for the responses. </p>

<p>First of all, that post earlier in the year was not written by me, it was written by a classmate. I am currently taking a year off, and I applied to Duke because I wanted to know as soon as possible where I would be going to college. At the time, I had moved to Florida and was working on the Obama campaign full-time (90h/week), and I didn't have a lot of time to give college admissions a lot of thought. Was this a mistake? Yes, but it happened. </p>

<p>This thread was brought on by my experiences at the AB Duke weekend, a scholarship that I found out yesterday I had won. Ironically, it's a weekend designed to persuade those accepted into the very top schools to attend Duke instead on a full scholarship. My experience was that Duke was a very different place than I thought when I had visited previously and not necessarily one that I would want to attend.</p>

<p>Obviously, I can't back out of ED for financial reasons, and I didn't apply ED so I could get a leg up on the competition. I applied because I thought that Duke was where I wanted to end up, and I wanted to know that I could count on Duke as early as possible. I fully admit that this was a mistake.</p>

<p>I think my post might have been a knee-jerk reaction to certain things that I observed during the weekend, and my opinions of Duke have softened a little bit. I want to make it clear that I don't care about prestige whatsoever, and I'm not trying to "trade up" so that I can go to the best school possible (which might even be Duke with AB). </p>

<p>As far as transfers go, I would hesitate to enroll and then transfer, because a lot of schools are incredibly difficult to transfer into. I don't care so much about HYP because I would never want to go there anyway.</p>

<p>In response to another question, I would take a year off and continue working on the Internet startup that I helped found, which provides web tools to political campaigns (Clients include OFA, Martin for Senate, McAuliffe for Gov, non-profits, etc.). It would be difficult to turn down the AB scholarship, and in all likelihood, I'll be at Duke next year. I'd like to reiterate that I'm not being motivated by gamesmanship, rather, by a desire to matriculate at a university where I feel I "belong." Thanks again for your responses.</p>

58

<p>Call Duke and speak with them. Honestly - you may just be getting cold feet. Not all colleges look the same everyday. Duke is big enough where you will probably find a niche.<br>
You are right about transferring. It can be incredibly difficult at some schools if you don't have a whole year in. Hence, my advice would be to go with the attitude that you are giving it a year.<br>
Congratulations on your scholarship!</p>

59

<p>"This thread was brought on by my experiences at the AB Duke weekend, a scholarship that I found out yesterday I had won. Ironically, it's a weekend designed to persuade those accepted into the very top schools to attend Duke instead on a full scholarship. My experience was that Duke was a very different place than I thought when I had visited previously and not necessarily one that I would want to attend."</p>

<p>What didn't you like?</p>

60

<p>"I don't know where to find most GC's who counsel kids on applying ED. Perhaps those are relegated to the private schools with wealthy kids who benefit greatly by the ED bump."</p>

<p>I think that GCs at any school that has lots of college-bound students who are at least middle class are familiar with ED. When I say "council kids on applying ED", I didn't mean suggesting that kids apply ED, I meant that when a kid applies ED, the GC makes sure the kid understands that they are promising that if they are accepted, ED., they go will attend the school, and also will immediately withdraw other applications.</p>