Withdrawing from ED

Parents Forum
61

<p>Why is it that every year at CC, this thread comes up? Different details, but always someone decides they can't attend ED. </p>

<p>Some of the reasons are valid. </p>

<p>But some aren't. "I changed my mind."</p>

<p>Oops. I went and bought a car. Oops. I don't like the color, after all. Too damn bad. The seats are uncomfortable. Oh well. I am not unsympathetic to a student's plight. I just understand that kids this age change their minds. I think we have all seen it, often. That should be their right...but ED locks them in. We don't let minors sign contracts for many reasons, including personal maturity and understanding how the world works. That is one reason why they go to college in the first place. </p>

<p>Even the most mature, intellectually advanced senior may change their mind about where to spend the next four years of their lives. Having a 17 or 18 year old make the decision to do ED is almost always a bad idea, IMO. I haven't seen a case yet where it was the right thing for that student on all levels. Deciding a year ahead of starting college where to attend and being so "sure" just seems wrong, to me.</p>

<p>ED benefits the colleges FAR more than it does the student.</p>

62

<p>OP, do I understand correctly? You are 'doing a gap year' now and are contemplating a 2nd gap year if you and Duke can come to some understanding releasing you from your ED commitment? I'm wondering what the colleges are going to be thinking about your applications next year. You certainly won't be a typical high school senior type applicant. Whether or not that is a good thing? Maybe, maybe not (especially with an ED withdrawal).</p>

63

<p>Littlegreenmom, buyer's remorse in not uncommon, but sometimes you're stuck with the product. And while we don't allow minors to sign contracts, in the college application process, both the applicant and the parents are often signing. An ED application requires a parent's signature precisely b/c the student is promising and, despite the fact that bills are issued in the student's name, the parents are usually responsible for paying the tuition bill (often by specific contract).</p>

64

<p>foolish,
In the past, I have seen far too many students try to beg out of it because the aid wasn't "good", or justify it that "they will never find out, if I apply elsewhere", or double deposit, or other "ethical" college admissions dilemmas. It isn't a bad idea to have the parents sign on that application for ED, after all. </p>

<p>Sometimes the reasons are valid - but it doesn't make much difference, does it? </p>

<p>I have never recommended ED to any of my students, although several have gone down that path.</p>

65

<p>If the colleges who still have ED all claim that it is a program that "works" and well over 90% of students honor their ED acceptances - where are the "far too many" students?
Numbers referring to one of the articles posted by Northstarmom and UPenn.
If half or even 75% of the students wanted "out" of their ED agreements then the school would determine the program broken and take a re-look.</p>

<p>I would never encourage a student to undertake an ED application lightly. I firmly believe that they need to completely understand the risks and benefits.</p>

<p>However, occassionally life intervenes. This is an agreement that works well when it works. The student is the buyer and even with a new car you get three days after you take it home to return it and get your money back. I resent the holier-than-thou attitude that this is all black and white and there is no gray area. It's not lying, cheating or stealing. </p>

<p>In this case, I think the OP has cold feet. He has been out in the "world" and is working on finding himself. He is fearful of now fitting in. Surely, you all understand the concept of "fit" when it comes to colleges. He is probably nervous he won't fit in with the trustafarian lifestyle at Duke and a class full of students a year younger.</p>

<p>While students do sign an agreement - we should all just stop telling kids that the school will come drag them from their beds and force them to pay thousands of dollars for not showing up a year after they decide to go. Heck - most people would tell a couple that a broken engagement is a lot less trouble than a divorce. </p>

<p>rant over. I am done.</p>

66

<p>Justamom,</p>

<p>Sorry if you resent the holier than thou. The problems I typically see are with the kids in the middle - the ones who aren't financially needy by the college's IM, and the ones that can't pay full freight. You know, the ones in the middle. </p>

<p>Case in point, a student who is told by his ED school that he is obligated to pay between $40-$50K per year - I think it is about $46k, even though his EFC came out to about $20k on FAFSA..because the CSS Profile and the IM for the school assumes the parents can afford to make up the difference. Some can. Maybe Dad can borrow from his equity in his house. Maybe he can't. Maybe he doesn't want to, I don't know. (He runs a small business and may not have that much available equity.) But this one kid I am referencing comes from a family where parents are divorced, one lives in an apt, one in a house, and lives on the West Coast. Both parents together make $120K - but they aren't together. They are in two households. There are other children to support. Mortgage/rent/etc to pay for. It is an impossibility to come up with that cash, unless it is students or parents loans. That is what I am referring to. Remember, sticker price is not the same for every kid who is attending that college. </p>

<p>Expenses vary by state and region, but even though it is not a wealthy area, rents and mortgages are high...and that is before everything else is factored in. </p>

<p>Hey, not everyone complains or tries to break their ED contract. That doesn't mean it isn't an absolutely agonizing problem for these kids and their families when they crunch their numbers after getting financial aid. Colleges will let kids out of their contracts, especially if given supporting documentation that the kid can't fund it. In the meantime, they may have missed applying for colleges that may have offered them better financial aid, possible merit scholarships and more choices.</p>

<p>It is up to the kids to decide whether ED is for them. It has to be an informed decision, but when the lights of a school are in these kids eyes, it is often hard to pull them back into reality. The colleges know this. It is a good game for them. They win - they know the kid is coming. It helps their yield percentages. They will never get rid of it, if they know that most of those kids will come. They have to...they signed on the dotted line. </p>

<p>I am not saying it can't work - but for me, in my line of work, I have seen more bad outcomes than good ones. If it has worked for you, your kids, your friends kids, your students, good for you. I am happy to hear it. That doesn't mean it is best, overall, for students.</p>

67

<p>Littlegreen, I agree with you that students seeking finaid based aid and for whom a few extra thou will be an issue probably shouldn't apply ED. But in the scenario you describe (family applied for need-based aid, the schools offer is outside the family's financial comfort zone), the family can decline the ED seat for financial reasons. Yes, the applicant will be disappointed, but that is part of growing up.</p>

<p>Also, if the family feels the aid offer is too low, some schools will allow the student to decline the ED seat and roll-over to RD. There is no gaurantee that the student will be admitted RD (but psychologically, it's hard to say no to a student you have already determined is capable of handling the work), but it does give the family the oppty to review all finaid awards before making a decision. </p>

<p>OP's situation, however, is far less sympathetic. He applied ED, apparently did not apply for aid, was awarded a merit grand and now wants to be released from ED, at least in part, because he thinks he can do better than Duke.</p>

68

<p>littlegreenmom - I actually agree with you. I would never allow my kids to apply ED. they needed financial aid.</p>

<p>IMO - no one who needs financial aid should bother with ED, sure they can get out of it but like you said - they have sucked in the kids. Parents are then made to feel like they are bad parents if they don't mortgage their retirement to pay for it.</p>

<p>This inevitably leads ED to being a program set aside for the wealthy kids to have that special look at admissions. They get a leg up - while some perhaps more worthy kids are left out. But - yeah, that's life. Money talks.</p>

69

<p>"While students do sign an agreement - we should all just stop telling kids that the school will come drag them from their beds and force them to pay thousands of dollars for not showing up a year after they decide to go. Heck - most people would tell a couple that a broken engagement is a lot less trouble than a divorce. "</p>

<p>Not one person here has said that. We've said that GCs and school staff/faculty may not go out of their way to support subsequent applications for someone who broke their ED commitment for a reason like simply changing their mind.</p>

<p>We've also said the ED school may blame the GC and school and may punish the school by not accepting even RD students from that school, including students who are outstanding and for whom the school is a dream school.</p>

<p>We've also said that after one signs a commitment, it is a breach of ethics to back out of it for a nonemergency reason.</p>

<p>To me, "Gee, I don't think I really like that school anymore," is not a good reason for backing out of ED.</p>

<p>No one forced the student to apply ED. The student certainly was old enough to understand what he was committing to. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. Most students end up going to whatever college is close to them and cheap. He was one of the very lucky students for whom money apparently wasn't a limitation in his college search. He also got into one of the top schools in the country. I don't see what the big deal is in expecting him to suck it up and go to Duke for at least a semester. He can transfer if he doesn't like it.</p>

70

<p>ED can work out wonderfully for needy kids with straightforward financial situations, applying to schools with the holy trinity of FA (need-blind, meets full need, no loan). Add in a school specific FA calculator and an award estimate at the time of admission, it can be a very smart choice. Yes, there are only a handful of schools meeting these criteria but for top students with need it really can work out.</p>

71

<p>^^^ Agreed. But I think the discussion has drifted from the OP's question/situation to the general merits of ED. </p>

<p>Getting back to OP and the parameters (not the merits, if any) of ED -- if, as one poster noted a couple of pages earlier, the ED agreement is to attend the ED school or no school, then a gap year is fine because OP does not propose to enroll at another school. If the ED agreement is to attend the ED school (presumably for no more than one semester, which would be the first transfer opportunity) unless released, then OP must ask to be released and if Duke say "no," OP must give Duke a shot after his gap year (or maybe instead of the gap year, if the only reason for the gap year was to get out of his ED obligation). </p>

<p>If it is more difficult for him to apply to other, better schools as transfer than as an incoming freshman - - we'll, thems the breaks. A lot of RD students find themselves in that same boat; they day-to-day life on campus is very different than the fabo overnight, so they work hard, get good grades and get the hell out.</p>

72

<p>Just to be clear, when I applied initially, I definitely needed financial aid; I don't have a multi-million-dollar trust fund waiting to finance my education. When I said I couldn't back out for financial reasons, I was referring to the fact that I had won a full scholarship (AB Duke).</p>

<p>With the intention of closing this post, I thought I'd let you know where I am. I think that my initial reaction to Duke stemmed partially from the stress of competing for the country's most prestigious merit scholarship for a weekend, and partially from the realization that I would no longer be having as much of an impact on the world as I've had for the past year (working for Barack Obama, Jim Martin, my startup, etc.) and I would have to be "just another college student" for the next four years. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've gotten used to a very high degree of independence, and by attending any college, I'd have to relinquish some of that.</p>

<p>So, I've decided to, as some of you so eloquently and compassionately suggested, "suck it up" and go to Duke. The fact that I'll graduate totally free of debt and student loans certainly helps, and I realized that I was more resentful of the fact that I didn't have a choice in where I went rather than that I had to go to Duke specifically. For those of you with children who will be going through this process, I would strongly urge them not to apply ED, unless they have big trust funds and small GPA's.</p>

<p>Thanks to all of you for the advice, especially those of you that didn't immediately jump to criticism without knowing the specifics of my situation. I think that the problem with CC is that it breeds insecurity, and it's very easy to see someone who seemingly has had everything handed to him complaining over something that seems insignificant when other kids are getting crushed by rejection (my advice: take a gap year).</p>

<p>So, though I won't rule out pulling a Zuckerberg/Gates/Dell and forgoing college to pursue my business ambitions, it looks like I'll be headed to Durham next year.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

73

<p>bpfarmer29, thanks for coming back to update us. I wish you all the best. You're obviously a supremely talented and bright young man. Kudos for working to get Obama elected and on your Internet startup! I can only imagine how difficult it must be to envision yourself in college after those experiences. But I'm confident you'll make the most of your college experience and do great things while at Duke and beyond!</p>

<p>To clarify my position, yes, I was a hardliner on the ED deal. But I believe once you opt into a system, no matter how repugnant you later view it, you've gotta play by the rules. So, if it's a contract, then as old-fashioned as it sounds, your word is your bond. Live up to it. If it's a duty imposed by a higher force, say your government, then no matter how distasteful, you don't go vigilante. Whether voluntary contract or involuntary duty, there is a right way and a wrong way to make your objections known. </p>

<p>And to be sure, this thread (as have many others) illustrates the many pitfalls of the ED system. For those who want more information, the College Board pages on ED actually present a fair summary with some good links and downloads.
Application</a> Ethics</p>

<p>Folks who disagree with ED should lobby for its dismantling.</p>

74

<p>bpfarmer,
Thanks for updating ups. Thanks for helping Obama win.
Warmest wishes to you as you prepare to go to Duke.</p>

75

<p>
[quote]

[quote]
"A GC wouldn't know whether a given case of ED-breaking involves unethical behavior, because the GC isn't a party to the contract, doesn't have full knowledge of the applicant's actions and reasons, and is not "in the loop" for a transaction that occurs between the college and the applicant. Taking the college's word for it is not sufficient here, either, if they do happen to communicate with GC. "

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But if a student who applied and was accepted ED returns next fall to get the GC's help in applying elsewhere, the GC would know that the student didn't honor their commitment. Indeed, the GC may already have been informed of this by the ED college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The GC would not know any such thing. An applicant may inform the ED college that (for example) the financial aid package is inadequate, provide no further information, and opt out according to the terms of the bargain. In such a case, the GC has no way of knowing that non-enrollment is a sign of any contractual breach. The college is not in a position to know whether the applicant is speaking truthfully, much less to prove untruthfulness to the GC. The applicant is under no obligation, ethical or otherwise, to prove his truthfulness; indeed it is an "honor system" and so described by the universities. It would be a breach of professional ethics for the GC to allege (in a recommendation) a contractual breach or other dishonor, either as his own speculation or by taking the college's word for it that a breach occurred.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The GC can ask the student why, and also can contact the ED college, and the GC would be entitled to accept the college's word just like the GC would be entitled to accept a teacher's word that a student had cheated in class.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is none of the GC's business to involve himself in contracts between parties outside the school. In fact, it is a conflict of interest with his actual duties, which are to the school and the students, not the college(s).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, the content of the GC recc is up to the GC. Even if the recc is available for the student to look at, the GC still can call the college and verbally give any recc that the GC chooses to.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would also be an ethical breach by the GC. It does not make sense to complain about applicant ethics while not holding GCs (or the colleges) to any such standard.</p>

76

<p>"That would also be an ethical breach by the GC. It does not make sense to complain about applicant ethics while not holding GCs (or the colleges) to any such standard."</p>

<p>As long as the GC is being truthful, they aren't making an ethical violation if they tell colleges that a student has negative characteristics. The GC ethically is obligated to be truthful in terms of what they tell colleges about students. Colleges frequently call GCs to get more information about students, and what GCs tell the college is between the GC and the college. </p>

<p>"It is none of the GC's business to involve himself in contracts between parties outside the school. In fact, it is a conflict of interest with his actual duties, which are to the school and the students, not the college(s)."</p>

<p>You are right: The GC does have an obligation to the students -- all of the students at the school where the GC works. If a student has done something with, for instance, and ED contract that may affect other students, the GC has every right to find out about this because it's the GC who'll be doing damage control to help the other students and the high school's reputation.</p>

<p>It's naive to assume that the GC works only for one student. The GC works for the school system.</p>

77

<p>"A GC wouldn't know whether a given case of ED-breaking involves unethical behavior, because the GC isn't a party to the contract...."</p>

<p>To clarify, the GC is a party to the ED contract. I published a link in #12 to the ED agreement Duke and many other schools use, as found in the Common App. Here's the signatory section:</p>

<p>INSTRUCTIONS
From the National Association for College Admission Counseling Statement of Principles of Good Practice:
Early Decision (ED) is the application process in which students make a commitment to a first-choice institution where, if admitted, they definitely will
enroll. While pursuing admission under an Early Decision plan, students may apply to other institutions, but may have only one Early Decision application pending at
any time. Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and
be released from the Early Decision commitment. The institution must notify the applicant of the decision within a reasonable and clearly stated period of time after the
Early Decision deadline. Usually, a nonrefundable deposit must be made well in advance of May 1. The institution will respond to an application for financial aid at or
near the time of an offer of admission. Institutions with Early Decision plans may restrict students from applying to other early plans. Institutions will clearly articulate
their specific policies in their Early Decision agreement.
If you are accepted under an early decision plan, you must promptly withdraw the applications submitted to other colleges and universities and make
no additional applications. If you are an Early Decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have received
notification about financial aid.
 Yes, I have read and understand my rights and responsibilities under the Early Decision process. I wish to be considered as an Early Decision candidate at:
________________________________________________________________<strong><em>. I also understand that with an Early Decision offer of admission,
this institution may share my name and my Early Decision Agreement with other institutions.
Signature of Student _</em></strong>_________________________________________________________________________________ Date _____________________
mm/dd/yyyy
Signature of Parent or Legal Guardian ___________________________________________________________________________ Date _____________________
mm/dd/yyyy
Signature of Counselor _____________________________________________________________________________________ Date _____________________
mm/dd/yyyy</p>

<p>If you'll note the first line under "Instructions," the source of the binding ED agreement is the ethics code applicable to GCs. I've heard a fair sampling of GCs talk at length on the subject of ED agreements and THEIR responsibilities under them, in addition to STUDENT & PARENT responsibilities under them. I've never heard anyone suggest as acceptable the "outs" proposed by some here. </p>

<p>Other than the permitted financial aid out, if someone learns they really must get out & can demonstrate "good cause," then the advice I've always heard is that the GC, student and parents--the signatories to the contract--approach the institution as a team to explain the circumstances and explore options. Reportedly, institutions are generally responsive to such pleas. But no GC worth his or her salts will participate in an appeal based on false or suspect premises.</p>

78

<p>
[quote]
First of all, that post earlier in the year was not written by me, it was written by a classmate.

[/quote]

From that post:

[quote]
Follow your own path, don't let high school dictate what you should pursue. I was barely involved in my high school, yet I created my own opportunities which were far more valuable. I'd much rather be a field organizer for the Obama Campaign in a battleground state and a project manager for an Internet startup than class president.

[/quote]

So who was the classmate - Sybil?</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
Other than the permitted financial aid out, if someone learns they really must get out & can demonstrate "good cause," then the advice I've always heard is that the GC, student and parents--the signatories to the contract--approach the institution as a team to explain the circumstances and explore options.

[/quote]

best. advice. ever.
honesty is the best policy. This was my first advice to the OP - which caused me to be labeled dishonorable by some.</p>

<p>That said - to actually pay the bill and show up on admissions day is ultimately the students CHOICE. they must live with the consequences - which may include being rejected by another institution and burning bridges. However, if there are true penalites to breaking an ED agreement the agreement should spell them out, but it does not address this issue.</p>

80

<p>OP, based on your "Clarification" post, I highly recommend that you attend Duke, if only for a year. You say that you don't want to be "just a student," which means that you will never go to college if you don't go now. I suspect you're probably thinking that you're making good money already and have a job, so why college? Contrary to many posts on CC, going to a residential university is not about getting a job, although. obviously, there is a connection. It's about expanding your knowledge, honing your critical thinking skills, making friends that will last a lifetime, and getting a much broader view of the world. College is not like high school, only harder. It is a completely different, formative, exhilarating experience that you can't understand unless you experience it. I have friends who earned their college degrees while living at home, and they didn't get believe that their children would have a different sort of education at a residential college UNTIL they saw the transformation. Now they wish they had done the same. But what's done is done -- they can't take back that part of their lives.</p>

<p>Go for a year. You have a full ride at Duke, so the financial risks are low. I suspect what is keeping you from Duke may be fear of the personal risks -- leaving your comfort zone -- and if so, you need to face them head on, now, before you fall into an avoidance pattern for the rest of your life. Every entering college student is afraid at first. A vast majority laugh at those fears partway through the first semester.</p>

<p>Yes, not everyone needs or should go to college. Many intelligent and successful people have foregone it, although many say that they regret having missed out on it. So what if you find college is not to your liking? At least you can say after a year that you tried it. But what if you end up loving Duke and all its opportunities? You'll never know if you don't try.</p>