Worried about barnard/columbia relationship

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
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<p>But the question is… why would some students perceive it as a problem… whereas others either don’t notice it or shrug it off. </p>

<p>I mean, certainly there are some jokes made – and I can see some individuals taking offense, whereas others just laughing right along. Example: “Barnard to bed, Columbia to wed” – would be seen as demeaning to Barnard women. But there is another stereotype that cuts the other way – that is, that the beautiful women go to Barnard and the nerdy women go to Columbia. Of course it is equally misplaced – but also the subject of plenty of jokes. </p>

<p>But on the other side of the coin, many students choose the all-female environment because of perceived sexism at co-ed institutions. That is, some students may enjoy being at a college where it is assumed that women will occupy leadership roles, and that their opinion is valued in class. Those students may find plenty of “second class citizenship” at other campuses, particularly if they are interested in studying or majoring in a male-dominated field. (With Lawrence Summers’ statement about women in sciences being a prime example). </p>

<p>So I think you have to come back to look at what may be a subjective perception – as well as some assumptions as to why things happen. That is – maybe the Columbia women your d. met judged her adversely because they didn’t like Barnard women… or maybe in her quest to meet the non-clubbing, dressing-down type of women, your d. also ran across very socially awkward women and misinterpreted their lack of social reciprocity as a rejection. Maybe there were Columbia women who didn’t respect my d., but my d. never noticed because my d. was breezing right past them, in part because my d. was more interested in meeting Columbia *men<a href=“there%20being%20no%20shortage%20of%20females%20to%20befriend%20at%20Barnard”>/i</a>. </p>

<p>I don’t disagree that its valuable to have a complete picture of the situation – but it might be important for students to look at that in light of their own personalities, recognizing that it is largely a process of subjective impressions and reactions. I mean – some Barnard women are members of Columbia sororities, so obviously some Barnard women bridge the social gap.</p>

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<p>Rather than engage in pyschoanalytic flights of fancy, the safest “non-spin” path for interested parties is to assume there was no material level of ambiguity or selective perception involved, and she did not misinterpret anything whatsoever. That is what I recommend, as I believe it to be the case.</p>

<p>Different experiences are most straighforwardly explained, without need to consult Freud, by assuming that, in the course of their studies and/or extracurriculars, some people encounter poxpox, cranberry25, collegeboy49, or some of the myriad other glorious members of the columbia community who have proudly flaunted their true colors on CC, and their fellow travelers . And correctly interpret them. While others thankfully do not encounter them. By pure probabilistic chance.</p>

<p>I think interested parties would do well to visit, talk to lots of students (not affiliated with admissions) and decide the truth for themselves.</p>

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<p>There is ambiguity and selective perception involved in all human relationships. </p>

<p>And thinking in terms of generalizations or stereotypes is never helpful. </p>

<p>I’d add that some of the posters on CC who have fed fuel to the Columbia/Barnard rivalry very clearly do NOT attend Columbia, and it is clear to me from some statements that some have never even set foot on the Columbia campus. So meeting them IRL is rather unlikely.</p>

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<p>My daughters’ experiences can confirm what I think MD is saying. D1 was aware that there were some CC students, usually girls, who looked at BC students as there social inferiors. She barely noticed it, and only discussed it after I brought it up. D2 who is more socially aware picked up on it more. She found it more irritating than D1 had. She is now traveling in Europe with a good friend who is a CC student, so even for her it died off by the end of the first semester. Final exams are good social levelers.</p>

<p>As for the haves and haves-not. We are decidedly middle class. We paid tuition and room and board with some straightening of the home life of which the girls were aware. They earned their pocket money. D2 is even baby sitting in Europe. Neither seemed to let it bother them although D1 who was not fashion conscious before she went did start reading Vogue. (She still doesn’t dress expensively.) To a certain extent the haves and the clubbers seemed to them to be a little clueless about some aspects of real life.</p>

<p>If anything bothered them about CC students looking down on them it was when the CC student was clearly an AA admit whose academic performance clearly didn’t warrant the air of superiority. But this attitude they wrote off to insecurity.</p>

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<p>I wonder if things have changed much from when Columbia originally went co-ed. I was in the first class at Barnard that began the year that Columbia went co-ed. I had never considering applying to Columbia. Among other things, I had deferred a year to be an exchange students so Columbia wasn’t even accepting women the year I applied. I had male and female friends from Columbia. I remember thinking that Columbia wasn’t as academically rigorous as Barnard because Columbia students didn’t write a senior thesis the way we did. I also remember that our foreign language department was considered superior but that was about it. When we took courses at Columbia or went dancing in the student center, no one knew where you went to school. I probably took 25% of my courses at Columbia. Later, I felt that that was a disadvantage because I lost some of the advantages of being at a small LAC by “spreading myself too thin”. While I definitely noticed women who wore fur coats, I think I was more uncomfortable by the divisiveness of some of the religious and ethnic groups on campus. I had grown up enjoying Israeli folkdancing even though I was Christian but I did NOT feel welcome participating in similar activities at Barnard in the '80’s. I had never seen Sukkot celebrated before but those who were celebrating had no interest in educating the ignorant. I came from an integrated public high school and it was shocking to me to see the diversity of Barnard splintered off into little homogeneous groups. I’m hoping that Barnard’s population is less divisive now.</p>

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<p>Mardad can you explain this?</p>

<p>“If anything bothered them about CC students looking down on them it was when the CC student was clearly an AA admit whose academic performance clearly didn’t warrant the air of superiority. But this attitude they wrote off to insecurity.”</p>

<p>Specifically, what is an “AA admit”?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Mom2kids: my guess would be that “AA admit” means “Affirmative Action Admit”.</p>

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<p>Well, if “AA” means “Affirmative Action Admit” – here is my question. My daughter was accepted into Barnard (didn’t apply to Columbia). We are from the West coast and my daughter self-identifies as African American(and white), although she looks like she could be many ethnicities. So, is there a problem with students at either college assuming that “AA” students got in entirely on the need for diversity and not on merit? My daughter’s gpa is nicely above 4.0 and her SAT scores included two 800’s. She knows she’s qualified to be at Barnard, but will she have to continually prove herself? Or find herself isolated? </p>

<p>thanks.</p>

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<p>Mom2kids: I never, ever heard my daughter speak about any such prevalent attitude. I gather from Mardad’s post where he said</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>that this must be in reference to a pretty specific instance/individual because a) they knew for a fact that this person was a CC (as opposed to Barnard or SEAS) student and b) this person came across as “superior” when, in fact, their academic performance was not so great (meaning Mardad’s d’s would have to KNOW this person’s academic performance was not that great…am I making any sense here??).</p>

<p>I do understand how Mardad’s reference might give you pause. However, I truly do not think there will be assumptions regularly made about an individual from any under-represented minority being on campus. I think Mardad’s point was that it was ONLY in the context of someone displaying an air of superiority that this even came into consideration…</p>

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<p>^^^ …as churchmusicmom said. There are many, many ethnicities at Barnard. D found herself followed around by Orthodox Jewish boys from Col. because of her curly hair. She wore short skirts to show she was not interested. It was really funny.</p>

<p>Her friends were of many ethnicities, geographies and sexualities. As far as I know, they all got along really well.</p>

<p>And she is going to CUNY law school in August because of its diversity.</p>

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<p>How is it possible to “work your way through” a school costing $56K? Just asking, because my daughter was accepted and it seems totally unaffordable for us based on their estimate of what they thought we could afford - over 1/4 of our gross annual income - we did call to discuss same…no wiggle room on their part.</p>

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<p>Yeah, that sounds about right. Different folks have different ideas of what they can afford. We cut our expenses way down to the bone. For example, if H and I ever chance to go out to dinner, an occasion or we’re away, or whatever, we share entree. Enough food for us anyway. We halve the price of dinner. We have done this will almost all expenses.</p>

<p>Then, I think we saved a lot because DD was gone. We saved all her lesson expenses (flute and dance), her food, entertainment, etc.</p>

<p>We <em>did</em> take the offered Stafford loans but we were able to just squeak by. It wasn’t easy at all, but it was rewarding.</p>

<p>She has graduated now, and I have one more going to graduate in '11. We have done okay juggling until this semester when I had a hip operation that affected my income. But we’ll piece the funds together somehow.</p>

<p>My friends feel sorry for me and think I’m way too self-sacrificing, but honestly, it’s been my pleasure.</p>

<p>And yes, we could have put the money toward retirement, we’re not young, but we wanted to do this.</p>

<p>Values vary, and that’s okay.</p>

<p>I was inspired by a couple in CA, both first generation folk, who sent five children through Harvard working two jobs each and living in a trailer.</p>

<p>I’m glad it didn’t go that far in my case, but I think I might have considered it.</p>

<p>Many parents feel that UG education and which school a child attends isn’t that important. I wouldn’t argue with them. There’s plenty of evidence and support for that point of view. </p>

<p>You have to do what feels comfortable and right for you and your family, and I’m sure all will be fine. </p>

<p>Good luck to your D.</p>

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<p>I think I might have used the phrase “worked her way through” in regards to me daughter, meaning she did, in fact, hold down one and at times two jobs while at Barnard. She also got work over the summer, but her last two years, that work was either through the Columbia AMGEN scholar fellowship she was awarded, or on the Barnard campus working in the lab for her thesis while working a second job to earn some money. </p>

<p>We also had to sacrifice to send her to Barnard, but, again, it was do-able for us and worth it to us. And, as I have said, we are convinced she is in her present fully-funded PhD program BECAUSE of her Barnard undergraduate education.</p>

<p>Not that it has to be that way for everyone, certainly. It just was what we chose.</p>

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<p>mythmom and churchmusicmom your daughters are incredibly lucky to have parents like you.</p>