<p>I actually know a kid here who is a highly touted football recruit (actually, he's taking time off now for non-academic reasons) who had a 2.7 and a 1230 (this was in the days of 1600 = perfect). If you're good enough at what you do, the limitations are low (and for him, the 'good enough' is good enough for the NFL).</p>
<p>Affirmative action is another form of reverse discrimination, which itself is wrong, even though many don't think it is.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
(some people who oppose AA will say that diversity is not a legitimate goal because either diversity does not matter or that diversity will naturally happen. the first stance is incredibly ignorant, and the second stance is just somewhat ignorant.
[/QUOTE]
Diversity is important. Skin color is not. AA promotes diversity based on skin color, nothing else. We might as well be trying to promote under represented hair colors or shoe sizes. Who cares if a college is full of people with big feet?? it can still be incredibly diverse.</p>
<p>Why is it that a Japanese American and an African American who grow up in the same neighborhood, are considered by AA to differ more from one another than two white kids, one of whom is the son of a CEO and one of whom goes to work with his father at a fast food restaurant? This is the kind of "diversity" that affirmative action promotes, and it is the kind I wholeheartedly oppose.</p>
<p>Besides, the majority of those who benefit from Affirmative Action are in fact from middle class to wealthy families. I read somewhere that 2/3 of Harvard's black admits are the children of wealthy immigrants who probably have more in common with most asian kids than other blacks (i'll dig up the article if anyone really wants to see it). Honestly, skin color has little to no relation to true diversity.</p>
<p>People with GPAs less than 3.5 get in all the time... a 3.5 in one school is hard to compare to a 3.5 to another because of potentially HUGE differences between the grading systems they use. However, since the SAT is a standardized text, <1600 can objectively said to suck.</p>
<p>A.A is merely a ploy used by American society to serve as "reparations" for past transgressions.</p>
<p>Thank you, JP_Omnipotence. Took the words right out of my mouth.</p>
<p>Funny thought: I'd say this board is diverse in views and in agendas.</p>
<p>Even in the same situations different ethnic groups have different experiences just because race DOES exist and certain reactions and viewpoints come with that. </p>
<p>I'm sure that if Asians were underrepresented, as they are in some colleges, the universities would want them too. </p>
<p>A senior member said in another forum:
[quote]
The main problem with this is that getting into ivies + stanford is viewed as a confirmation of talent and performance, when it really is not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Which i think is the problem of 99% of AA opponents on this board. Getting admitted to a top university is not suppose to be some kind of recognition of you being the best. Someone who is admitted to Harvard is not any more worthy or talented person then somebody admitted to Ohio State. </p>
<p>If you all would stop judging yourself and eachother based on what colleges you get accepted to you would realize the fault in your logic and that AA isn't some kind of racist atrocity after all.</p>
<p>If they stop the competition to define themselves by their college, CC would have to shut down due to lack of interest! And then what would we do for fun?</p>
<p>
[quote]
If they stop the competition to define themselves by their college, CC would have to shut down due to lack of interest! And then what would we do for fun?
[/quote]
not true. not everyone who wants to go to a top colleges will let whatever college they get into represent who they are as a person or define how intelligent they are. besides a lot of the posts on here aren't even necessarily related to college admissions.</p>
<p>JP_Omnipotence:
[quote]
Diversity is important. Skin color is not. AA promotes diversity based on skin color, nothing else.
[/quote]
you contradict yourself here. you said, "AA promotes diversity based on skin color." and, "Diversity is important." hmmm...</p>
<p>
[quote]
We might as well be trying to promote under represented hair colors or shoe sizes. Who cares if a college is full of people with big feet?? it can still be incredibly diverse.
[/quote]
this is a dumb argument to make... shoe size impacts yourself as much as what race you are born into? assuming you're Asian, i'm pretty sure that your views about AA would be a lot different if you were White, Black, or Hispanic.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why is it that a Japanese American and an African American who grow up in the same neighborhood, are considered by AA to differ more from one another than two white kids, one of whom is the son of a CEO and one of whom goes to work with his father at a fast food restaurant? This is the kind of "diversity" that affirmative action promotes, and it is the kind I wholeheartedly oppose.
[/quote]
ok, your understanding of the college admissions process is flawed. the two hypothetical whites kids would not be viewed the same way and rightly so.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Besides, the majority of those who benefit from Affirmative Action are in fact from middle class to wealthy families. I read somewhere that 2/3 of Harvard's black admits are the children of wealthy immigrants who probably have more in common with most asian kids than other blacks (i'll dig up the article if anyone really wants to see it).quote]
a majority of kids at those schools are wealthy? why is it bad if the African American kids are wealthy too? because they're not supposed to be?</p>
<p>your argument only makes sense if you are misinterpreting AA as being an effort to undue hundeds of years of systematic prejudice and racism against African Americans, Women, etc. however, that is no longer the purpose of AA or how it is used, and thus your argument is irrelevant. </p>
<p>AA merely allows colleges to ask applicants for their race so that they can create a racially diverse student body in a practical matter (how would they create a racially diverse student body if they didn't know how many kids from each ethnic group they were admitting?). </p>
<p>
[quote]
Honestly, skin color has little to no relation to true diversity.
[/quote]
first of all, what is "true" diversity? second, i think you are completely wrong and the Supreme Court thinks you are wrong too. you contradicted yourself at the very beginning of your post and you didn't even bother to argue or at least explain your point...</p>
<p>anyways, JP, i really don't understand how any human being could say that racial diversity does not matter. perhaps you have been too sheltered all your life or you have not studied history in depth, but your remark borders on complete ignorance. i mean who are you to say that racial diversity doesn't matter?</p>
<p>i will give you the benefit of the doubt, and not believe that you are prejudiced but that you just don't understand how college admissions and the world work. i would also suggest that you take Tyler09's advice and not equate where you go to college with your selfworth.</p>
<p>^^ Well... actually, AA is hardly just a question of self-worth. Much more practically, arguably, going to a prestigious and/or well-ranked school supposedly gives one more OPPORTUNITIES to succeed, both just because you have the "name-brand" of a highly ranked school, and because you are more likely to be better-prepared, as these schools often have money to support very good professors, research and facilities. AA could limit the opportunities of over-represented students, though I am not saying this is necessarily the case. Just, I think the "self-worth" argument is a little soft, while in fact, going to a prestigious and highly ranked college can have very concrete advantages, and thus students who are disadvantaged by AA (or who think they are) might have good reason to be against it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why is it that a Japanese American and an African American who grow up in the same neighborhood, are considered by AA to differ more from one another than two white kids, one of whom is the son of a CEO and one of whom goes to work with his father at a fast food restaurant? This is the kind of "diversity" that affirmative action promotes, and it is the kind I wholeheartedly oppose.
[/quote]
this example is also stupid because you are ignorant of the fact that even though the Japanese American and African American are both wealthy they would have had totally different life experiences. one would have been a "wealthy Japanese American" whereas the other would have been a "wealthy African American." if these two individuals had the exact same life experiences why is it that one would have gone through life as a "Japanese American" whereas the other an "African American?" my point here is that language tells us that these two things are not the same thing. if they were the same things then why would we distinguish between the two when we talked about their life experiences? again, one would go through like as a "wealthy Japanese American" while the other would go through life as a "wealthy African American." the fact that you are using adjectives to distinguish between the two yet you are saying they are the same is simply ironic.</p>
<p>moreover, is it possible for a Japanese American to ever get a DWB-Driving While Black? no. is there an equivalent to DWB's for Asians, DWA-Driving While Asian? no. all of the statistics indicate that Blacks are the most likely to be pulled over without having already committed a crime. thus, from this example, you should be able to see that African American's and Japanese's life experiences vary. consider this, would a Japanese kid feel as awkward as a black kid during classroom discussions about slavery? no. would a black kid feel as awkward as a Japanese kid during a classroom discussion about Japenese being sent to concentration camps during WWII? no. clearly, race does influences the way a person reacts to different experiences.
this is not an argument for AA; it's an argument against your claim that racial diversity doesn't matter basically because race doesn't matter (you trivialized the influence race has on an individual's experiences by comparing it to the influence the individual's shoe size has on him or her.)</p>
<p>EDIT:
[quote]
Much more practically, arguably, going to a prestigious and/or well-ranked school supposedly gives one more OPPORTUNITIES to succeed, both just because you have the "name-brand" of a highly ranked school, and because you are more likely to be better-prepared, as these schools often have money to support very good professors, research and facilities.
[/quote]
i can go on and on with what's wrong with this but it will take too long... search the forum for topics relating to "does prestige really matter?" because everything that is wrong with your perspective has already been highlighted there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AA could limit the opportunities of over-represented students, though I am not saying this is necessarily the case. Just, I think the "self-worth" argument is a little soft, while in fact, going to a prestigious and highly ranked college can have very concrete advantages, and thus students who are disadvantaged by AA (or who think they are) might have good reason to be against it.
[/quote]
i think the "self-worth" argument is pretty good. just look at all the posts people make about less deserving individuals "getting in over them." obviously the "less" is indicative of the fact that these kids think they're better than whomever it is they are complaining about getting accepted.</p>
<p>anyways, if this were the case, wouldn't it make more sense to provide these great opportunities to many groups rather than just a few groups? what is the "advantage" for giving this opportunity to a few groups rather than many? i think it'd be pretty hard to argue that only a few groups should have realistic access to these opportunities without utilizing some kind of prejudiced, ignorant, insensitive argument.</p>
<p>I think you guys are taking this a little bit too far.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you guys are taking this a little bit too far.
[/quote]
i think it is morally wrong to allow these sorts of misunderstandings of AA to remain. i think that it is important to challenge some of these views on AA because many of them border on prejudice.</p>
<p>I agree with that. I just don't understand how AA fell into the thread of "Worst Statistics To Be Accepted?" </p>
<p>That in itself is prejudice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That in itself is prejudice.
[/quote]
i completely agree.</p>
<p>i am no racist by any means but i completely disagree with AA...it is going about "preventing racism" the wrong way by causing bitterness among students denied admission at certain universities and those who get in because of a minority...the best qualified students should be accepted and race should not even play a part in the application process...they need to have race-blind policies...the best should get in at the best</p>
<p>and yes i realize that this has nothing to do with this thread... just sticking with the new subject</p>
<p>Do you really think they would let in a minority with mediocre stats over a non-minority with stellar stats? I mean come on now.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
you contradict yourself here. you said, "AA promotes diversity based on skin color." and, "Diversity is important." hmmm...
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say diversity I mean diversity of talents, activities, and skills, NOT diversity in terms of physical appearance.</p>
<p>I do not believe I contradicted myself. After all I could say something like "books are important, books about the color beige are not important".</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
this is a dumb argument to make... shoe size impacts yourself as much as what race you are born into? assuming you're Asian, i'm pretty sure that your views about AA would be a lot different if you were White, Black, or Hispanic.
[QUOTE]
Physical appearance in general drastically impacts your life. Being handsome or beautiful can increase your paycheck, make a better impression when interacting with others, and give you an easier time with the law. Being tall can increase your confidence and have others view you as a leader (most CEOs are above average height, I forget the statistics).</p>
<p>Being ugly can make it almost impossible to find a partner, can make people regard you with suspicion, and lower your paycheck.</p>
<p>Yet colleges don't try to accept as many handsome people as ugly people or as many tall people as short people. Billions of qualities affect your life and point of view, yet colleges really don't care about most of them. Why should race be an exception. I'm sure an exceptionally ugly asian person has a much harder time with the law than a black person.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
first of all, what is "true" diversity? second, i think you are completely wrong and the Supreme Court thinks you are wrong too. you contradicted yourself at the very beginning of your post and you didn't even bother to argue or at least explain your point...
[/QUOTE]
The supreme court is not infallible. It previously declared segregation to be constitutional, and it has overturned countless previous decisions. As for my contradiction, I really don't believe I contradicted myself.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
anyways, JP, i really don't understand how any human being could say that racial diversity does not matter. perhaps you have been too sheltered all your life or you have not studied history in depth, but your remark borders on complete ignorance. i mean who are you to say that racial diversity doesn't matter?
[/QUOTE]
I am asian yes. Most of my friends however are of a different race than me. My best friend is black. All this has made me aware of is how racial diversity does not matter, as their race has a very minimal affect on who they are. They are wonderful people whose qualities are virtually independent of their skin color.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
i will give you the benefit of the doubt, and not believe that you are prejudiced but that you just don't understand how college admissions and the world work. i would also suggest that you take Tyler09's advice and not equate where you go to college with your selfworth.
[/QUOTE]
I have not once equated my college with my selfworth, but I obviously want to go to a competitive college. I am not personally applying to any Ivy's or HYPSMC because I know those are not the environments for me. I am not one of those senseless kids who is feeling vengeful about not getting into princeton and blaming affirmative action as the cause of their failure, I am explaining what I think is fair, correct, and just for the sake of everybody. I know that college admissions are holistic, and I know AA doesn't let UMRs with a 1200 and a 1.8 gpa get into dartmouth.</p>
<p>I just feel that billions and billions of things can affect your life and viewpoints, and it is very unfair for colleges to single out race above all other factors. Being overweight, ugly, hearing impaired, or just plain socially inept all affect your life, yet colleges don't care about any of that and don't include those aspects of a person in their "holistic review".</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
moreover, is it possible for a Japanese American to ever get a DWB-Driving While Black? no. is there an equivalent to DWB's for Asians, DWA-Driving While Asian? no. all of the statistics indicate that Blacks are the most likely to be pulled over without having already committed a crime. thus, from this example, you should be able to see that African American's and Japanese's life experiences vary.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone leads a different life with different experiences. Fat people are more likely to be beaten up in school. People with cruel looking faces are more likely to be pulled to the side at the airport for a "random" security checkup. Ugly people with wavering voices find it much harder to make friends than handsome guys with comforting voices. If colleges don't consider these aspects, why on earth should they consider race?</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
consider this, would a Japanese kid feel as awkward as a black kid during classroom discussions about slavery? no. would a black kid feel as awkward as a Japanese kid during a classroom discussion about Japenese being sent to concentration camps during WWII? no. clearly, race does influences the way a person reacts to different experiences.
[/QUOTE]
Same argument as above. A fat person would feel awkward in a discussion about obesity in a physiology class.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
this is not an argument for AA; it's an argument against your claim that racial diversity doesn't matter basically because race doesn't matter (you trivialized the influence race has on an individual's experiences by comparing it to the influence the individual's shoe size has on him or her.)
[/QUOTE]
I was exaggerating on purpose, but let me give you a more realistic example.</p>
<p>An short, fat, acne ridden and ugly teenager with horribly messy hair, greasy skin, an asymmetrical face, and no coordination applies to college. His qualities have no doubt drastically affected his life. His awkwardness always leads store owners to believe he is shoplifting. His appearance and awkwardness has prevented him from making any friends. He cannot put ANY of these things on his application because it would simply sound like he is whining. Yet there is no doubt they have shaped him into who he is and he would provide a new perspective on campus.</p>
<p>Yet no college would give a kid like this preference. Even though his appearance has affected his life far more than most peoples' skin color, colleges would not give a kid like this any bonus points. Why? Because it isn't yet politically correct.</p>
<p>Lookism is a very real thing. Good looking people are paid more, treated better, and in general have a much easier life. No college wants to give bonus points for ugliness though.</p>
<p>Is that a serious question or are you being sarcastic? Yes, that sort of thing does happen fairly often, according to CC.</p>