<p>As a back of the envelope calculation, I would say that a 2250 would be needed to put someone into a match-reach situation at an Ivy or Duke. What do I mean by that? (I'll get flamed for this one). 2250 should put him at least at the 50th percentile (probably more like 60-75th) at any school in the country. Obviously, this vastly over-simplifies the situation, but if you look at the narrowness of the percentiles at HYPS, then you realize that unless there is something extraordinary about the person - most recruited athlete, or national award winner, Olympian (even he didn't get into Harvard ;) - then the SAT score is just another box to be checked to get into the race. These schools are reaches for everyone who can "get into the race". There is very little real numerical difference in the 25th percentile and the 99th, particularly at HYPS.
What it means for him is that Stanford is a reachy reach, Dartmouth a realistic reach, and so on down the line (particularly if he can score and break 2200). I would encourage you to help him articulate what he likes about Stanford and Claremont, and look for those characteristics in schools of various selectivities. Duke, Stanford, Dartmouth, Rice, Davidson, Claremont do have some "flavor" in common, although each has its differences. He has to get a feel for what differences are non-negotiable. I'm not well acquainted with the CA schools, but I would suggest Northwestern, Rhodes College and Sewanee, Elon University, W&M (although its tough to get into), Bucknell, Trinity University in San Antonio, Southwestern, Goucher (looking for guys, and outside Baltimore, easy to get to the other coast).</p>
<p>One thing he will have to consider head on, is that private schools, by their very nature, have wealthier students, and colleges, by their very nature, have LOTS of drinking. The real question is whether or not he can fit in - this may involve size - CLaremont is small, and a larger school with the same amount of wealth and drinking may feel OK to him. Requires visits. DD attends a school where she would not be described as a stereotypical, mainstream student, and she loves it - very happy with her group, feels she is with her people, so at some point he just has to hang out at a place. Enough rambling</p>
<p>One thing I forgot that IS important is a good school newspaper. He isn't sure what he wants to major in, but he knows he'd like to have newspaper work as an option.</p>
<p>Whether or not they are reaches, it is great to include at least a couple of them!</p>
<p>There are less intense and less competitive versions of the schools that may be appealing. Sometimes it is good to just search out ANY schools that seem appealing, THEN find similar schools that can round out the list with a couple of more sure bets, a couple of matches, and a couple of reaches. Don't worry too much about geography at first-- go for school culture and environment. If you find a great fit you can then focus on local equivalents, less selective equivalents, etc.</p>
<p>Take a look at:</p>
<p>Kenyon
Trinity
Hamilton
Rhodes
Lawrence
Allegheny
Grinnell (quite liberal)
Millsaps
Hanover
Centre</p>
<p>He's getting LOTS of mail from Grinnell - interesting. He has shown no interest and I think they've contacted him 4 or 5 times now - I wish I could figure out what the different schools are seeing that's making him be contacted. As a mom, I was blown away by the post card from Yale inviting him to apply.
Thanks for all of the suggestions!!
Once more, anyone have any experience with the IB question - diploma vs. certificates? any weight given at all?</p>
<p>Yes most of the ones we mention are "reaches", particularly if his SATs end up closer to 2100 than to 2300. People on this forum tend to talk about the schools everyone knows about, partly if we hit a chord (he finds one he really likes a lot) then people can list more regional schools that have things in common with his preferred school. He really has to decide if he feels comfortable going away from home - it is much easier to get merit aid if you are willing to travel.
Try this, Southwestern in Dallas and DePauw in Indiana have charts showing how much merit aid he would get this year with a given combo of SATs and GPA. Compare those figures with the cost of attendance, taking into consideration how much need-based aid they might give. Be conservative in your estimates. If he's looking good for substantial merit aid at one of these schools, then you have your "tier" for looking at other schools. Remember that because they openly say so much aid for X stats, this is essentially a discount, so that the final cost of attendance may still be high. In other words, they give lots of people a little discount. Other schools give a few "stars" a big discount, and some (the real gems) give a goodly number of solid scholarships - half tuition, etc.</p>
<p>Dont take the mail too seriously. More applications = lower % accepted = prestige. Of course, he has some sort of appeal (high PSAT, from a less well represented state) but do not put much stock in this.</p>
<p>BTW Grinnell gives good merit aid.</p>
<p>If the certificates are only because of a closure of the IB program I doubt that will be held against him.</p>
<p>Cangel - thanks for the outline of your process. It sounds pretty much like what we have in mind. I feel funny about trying to talk him INTO going far away, when I'd miss him like crazy....
Are there any good schools west of Oklahoma/Texas that I'm missing?</p>
<p>In the west, if you are looking for good merit aid and a good education, consider University of San Diego. Beautiful campus, about 4-5000 students, 10 minutes from SD airport, downtown, and beaches.</p>
<p>Re: IB -- we looked into it briefly - no International Schools close enough to make it work. But we learned that many colleges consider IB classes and AP classes in the same light. It would definitely qualify for schools looking to see that you "took the most challenging courses available."</p>
<p>You made a comment about needing merit aid to cover your EFC. You need to make this one of your questions as you visit schools. Many schools (including all the schools my oldest applied to) use any merit aid to cancel out need-based aid first. For instance, let's say the need-based aid was $10,000, and the school breaks it into a $2000 grant, a $3000 work-study, and $5000 subsidized loan. Your son gets a merit award for academics of $7,000. The school may eliminate the loan first, then cut back the work-study. So your student ends up with $9000 "cash" and a small work-study. But your EFC hasn't changed. Schools that do this say the merit award belongs to your student -- therefore HIS loans should be cut back. They do the same thing with any outside scholarships. YOUR responsibility for the EFC doesn't change.</p>
<p>My second son's school has a different view. They do not penalize him for any merit awards, and they are given in addition to any need-based. They say they want to encourage students to go after as many outside awards as possible. We like that much better. :) After the first year, my oldest S quit trying for scholarships, since it was a lot of work to apply, and didn't help us out at all. (His need-based aid at Penn was all grant.)</p>
<p>I would seriously have him look into one of the service academies. They all have a lot to offer. His athletics and grades make him a good fit.</p>
<p>S is Midshipman at the US Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point, NY. It doesn't have the liberal arts spectrum of the other academies, but provides more options upon graduation.</p>
<p>Just be careful of what he might expect from all that college savings you don't have to spend.</p>
<p>orjr: Exciting times for you and your son! Looks like he has the opportunity to go just about anywhere he wants. I'd highly suggest going the sports route - it's a much easier way to get in to the school of his choice. He has the grades and ec's, but so does the competition. West Coast conservatives here also - two of our three children are recruited athletes. Oldest D is graduating from Yale in May . She could have played top D-1, but it was always her goal to use her sport to get into the best school possible, and she has loved every minute of Yale. She found that coming from the Pacific NW, her HS teachers were more liberal than any she has encountered at Yale. You'll find the athletes on campus (any campus) to be a bit more conservative than the general population of the college. Our S is making final decisions now - he's going the D-3 route and it has been an awesome experience as well. Recruit visits are easier and more fun when you visit as an athlete. They have over-nights with current students and really have an experience that is different than someone visiting with his/her parent. Huge advantage coming from West Coast as well. One of my D's friends ran track in HS (OK not over the top athlete) and she was a shoe in at Dartmouth. Football players to Columbia and Claremont ...I could go on, but you get my point! Lots of great books on all of this: "Playing the Game" and "A is for Admission" are good ones.</p>
<p>I love this conversation! I can hardly believe this place exists. Thanks so much. Dk5ver - we are also PNW and sports is another area where isn't quite sure how he "fits" - good enough for here? there? He is a soccer player and not a star - but a solid player both club and varsity. He hasn't done Olympic Development team, but is going to a showcase tournament for college coaches next month that should help us get a handle on how to use the sport as a help in making a good match for admission.
Would love to hear more. Ya'll sound like you have a much higher opinion of his chances at "name" schools than we were thinking. Very affirming news. It can't hurt to apply and I wholeheartedly agree with the post that said if you don't get rejected somewhere, you weren't really 'reaching'. Where is your son looking at for D3 and what is his sport?</p>
<p>binx - ouch! What great information! I'm not sure how to even ask that question, but I'll figure it out. Where is your son's school that doesn't do the penalizing?
Sounds like the financial aid packaging is a whole separate education for me.</p>
<p>Orjr, My son did the full IB diploma and I believe it was a plus in admissions. We asked the question at every info session we attended (14) and every time the response was VERY positive. It is recognized and appreciated. It would be unfortunate if your sons high school were to discontinue the program, but I cant imagine that any college would hold that against him. In that event the certificates would be his only option and I believe he could explain the situation accordingly.</p>
<p>Williams sounds like it has a lot of what your son is looking for: excellent academics particularly in humanities, Division III sports, Japanese, skiing and snow sports, lively campus newspaper, rural insular tightly knit campus community, reasonable balance between liberals and conservatives (still, like most colleges predominately liberal), DECA involvement would be considered a positive. We are halfway around the world and are content that our son is in a friendly supportive atmosphere. Good need based financial aid, but no merit aid per se. I say per se as they seem to bend the need calculations for students whom they really want to matriculate. Your son seems to fit the profile.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is bigger, but also sounds like a good fit. Some other ideas in the LAC category with a similar ambience but less selective in admissions are Hamilton and Kenyon.</p>
<p>When my son started his search in his Junior year he had a list of about 30 maybes. Through all kinds of research he narrowed down to a visit list of 14. Because we live overseas there was no possibility of returning for an after-acceptance visit so we had to really make the visits count. Post visit it was easy to focus on 8-10 with a clear number 1, ED choice. Surprisingly to us (though I have since heard that this is a fairly common occurrence) his pre-visit top choices completely fell of the list and his ultimate #1 where he is now enrolled was a last minute mid-trip add-on. So the best advice is to visit.
.</p>
<p>How about Willamette U. Little bigger than Linfield, little better in sports, bigger city location, has Japanese Co-school located on campus. Reasonably priced. Has a big river 3 blocks away, Snow is 1.5 hours away. Beach is 1 hour the other way. LAC.</p>
<p>However, I did notice that OSU (corvallis, OR) has buildings for Crop Science, Forage Science, Food Science, Animal Science. Nuclear Reactor, Diary Building.
besides the standard Engineering, Computer, etc. </p>
<p>As far as IB, many schools give you credit for the diploma. It also allows you to check "taking hardest courses" on an application if that is the hardest path at your son's school.</p>
<p>If finances are important to you, then that needs to be factored in from the start. It needs to be part of the conversation that you have. I did what you are doing for my son and gave him sites to check. He visited large, medium and small schools. In the end, he knew exactly where he wanted to go. Funny thing, it was the one school that he found on his own. :)</p>