Correct, to my understanding. It’s an odd system, as you can “qualify” by “selecting” them after all of the data is in. Seems it would hard to not “qualify” at the school a student chooses to attend.
Interesting that Florida is so low here considering its recent rise and its amazing cost/benefit for Florida residents through Bright Futures, which I imagine would place it well in these kinds of rankings that weight student outcomes highly.
Interesting that Florida is so low here considering its recent rise and its amazing cost/benefit for Florida residents through Bright Futures, which I imagine would place it well in these kinds of rankings that weight student outcomes highly.
THE/WSJ ranks do not factor cost, and do not directly factor benefit. Instead they have a high 30% weighting on “resources”, which is a category that Florida and other publics do poorly in. Some specific numbers are below. Florida is only getting less than half of the possible 30 points in resources, so they have little chance of appearing towards the top of the overall THE/WSJ rankings.
Resources Ranking
1 . Caltech – 30/30
2. MIT – 29.8/30
3. Harvard – 29.7/30
…
254. UC Berkeley – 15.9/30
…
311. U Florida – 14.9/30
The closest thing to benefit would be their “outcomes” ranking, although outcomes is probably more correlated with being highly selective than the benefit for a particular student. For “outcomes”, the order of the 5 colleges above was as follows. The listed selective publics do okay in “outcomes”, but not as high as HYPSM type colleges.
Outcomes Ranking
3 . Harvard – 39.6/40
3. MIT – 39.6/40
6. Caltech – 39.0/40
…
20. UC Berkeley – 37.4/40
…
26. U Florida – 35.9/30
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I think lots of reasons why it doesn’t as well. They are very different environments and offer different things. Apples v. Oranges IMO.
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Of course the environments are different, but that is not a ranking criteria. Graduate schools and employers do not create separate lists either. Neither do outcomes.
People who like it the old way can always pick up a US News in the airport.
Absolutely correct, which is why all rankings on education are worthless. They merely play on the insecurities of making a decision that will impact every day of the rest of your life…but for reasons most ignore and have a far greater impact than alma-mater.
The impact (and expense) of schooling is entirely personal, yet every touchpoint, interaction, and decision over those 4 years impacts every aspect of your future. Who still speaks with their freshman roommate? Hallway friends? Old professors? The spouse they met at a bar off-campus? The employer they worked for part-time? Your first boss? Sports team members? You have no control over their being in your life, other than selecting the school. By picking “them” indirectly, you cut off opportunities to have similar engagement with tens of millions elsewhere.
The only thing you can assess are the perceived opportunities of the path you choose. If that’s the # 15 school on the LAC listing at US news or the 34th ranked school on WSJ…assuming that moving up or down the rankings will somehow dramatically impact your life is futile…every decision ultimately impacts the rest of your life.
So relax everyone…all of your decisions are simultaneously wrong, wonderful, and permanent. It all just sorta works out. Arguing over the value of one listing based on the prioritization of a few people vs. another prioritization and presentation format is the least valuable thing you’ll do all week.
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I couldn’t agree more. I’m not sure what value these lists add - most people are already aware that Harvard/Yale/MIT etc are elite schools that attract outstanding students (and are heavily resourced). In my view any school in the top 100 is going to provide a great education (and many outside that group as well) - is #27 that much better than #45 or #89 in terms of the actual education provided? Also, some schools that aren’t that highly rated may have excellent programs in a student’s major of interest - should they not pursue that school because it isn’t ranked highly enough by one of these publications? The most insidious part of these rankings is that it perpetuates the myth that there are only 50 or so schools that are worth attending and that just isn’t true.
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I learned more in my small honors college classes than I did in the large lecture halls. The smaller classes allowed me to get to know my fellow students better and they were more prepared and intelligent than average. It seems like having four years of that experience in a strong LAC would be wonderful. However, it can cost a lot more.
Sure, you can get a fine education at a school ranked in the 200s from US News. Maybe you’re in an honors program. Maybe you are one of the top students and stand out. Maybe your parents have more money than the average kid so you get to study abroad, have a car, live in nice apartments off campus and not have to work.
I’ve come to appreciate the undergrad major rankings relative to overall rankings. Many people change majors so you don’t want to only look at major rankings.
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So is choosing which player to put into my fantasy football lineup - do I go with Jamarr Chase or Amari Cooper.
But that’s the point - the rankings create an entire lot of controversy - that truly has little meaning.
Imagine the person who goes to - name your school - UF and gets married to someone from there. They’d never have met them if they went to UGA - and might have met a different person.
Guy I work with went to a school I never heard of - W Georgia. Was an RA. Married a resident…a month later, that was over. He says she was looney.
Now at 38 he’s marrying again.
What if he went to Valdosta State - maybe he would have married a co-worker at 28 or maybe he’d have met a different student.
Where you go will impact your life. It will get you donation solicitations forever, a quarterly magazine and what not.
But in the end, you 'll get to somewhere no matter where you go - and life will be fine.
In the meantime, you are making a decision with the best intent but have no idea - will your roommate situation be ok, will you be a victim of crime on campus, will you understand your professor, could you avoid that 8a class.
Those who make lists by a ranking…and many do…are just buying into the hype.
Getting educated is the most important thing. If you have tenacity, you’ll end up fine. And if you don’t, you won’t - regardless of where you go. It might help you initially, but it’s still about the person.
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Simple argument you are making; that I directionally agree with BTW. I just like having one interesting yet inconsequential list to look at - instead of 2. Saves me some time. I also admire innovation - even within the rankings.
I think there are solid reasons to choose a smaller, undergraduate focused LAC for some kids. I went to a SLAC myself. Others might prefer a huge school like OSU. I’m not suggesting that all schools are alike - just that it is hard to put a specific number to each one and say, definitively, that X is better than Y (especially when people get into “discussions” about why X dropped 4 spots this year as if X is suddenly not as “good” as it was the year before).
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I liked the big sports and tons of activities as well. What I like is seeing a longer term trend to see why a school has moved. Maybe their graduation rates aren’t keeping up with their peers. Maybe the rankings started emphasizing Pell Grant or other diverse students and that caused significant changes.
In the WSJ rankings, as an example, Bucknell is in the 80s but Penn State is in the 140s. However, if one looks at major rankings, Penn State will possibly always beat Bucknell. For a wealthy student, Bucknell will cost a lot more than Penn State, especially in state, but it has a lot lower faculty to student ratio. For a low income student, they probably see both schools’ price tags and shake their heads. Most don’t know about need based aid unless they have good guidance. Most colleges in that 50-200 rank group in WSJ care a lot about rankings and certainly trumpet good results.
That’s the point. If it were, you’d have two lists. You’re going to have a range of outcomes and grad school metrics either way. But one is like shopping at a department store and the other shopping at a boutique.
yes, there are differences between liberal arts colleges and national universities. thanks for clarifying.
I just like seeing them all together.
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So are Cal Tech and Berkeley and those are always ranked together. I do appreciate USN putting LACs, regional colleges in separate categories, since it bought more visibility to them. However the student and parent have to select one college and if you do get acceptance into your state flagship, a LAC and a private RU, you have to compare them. Affordability will be the first and then other things like academic reputation where rankings could come into play.
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@cquin85: I agree that National Universities should be ranked separately from LACs. When lumped together, LACs almost never make it in the top 20 or so positions. Separate rankings allows LACs to enjoy some noteriety.
I find US News & WSJ/THE rankings to be useful overall & especially when examining the individual aspects rated.
I view all ratings & rankings as sources of information that one can use or ignore.
Prior to the creation of US News ratings & rankings of colleges & universities, selecting a school was rarely more than a regional crapshoot based on little more than anecdotes & gossip.
P.S. Prior to the the advent of US News college rankings, many high school counselors seemed to base college recommendations primarily based upon his or her relationship with the regional college recruiter–and for good reason as there was very little information available upon which to base recommendations.
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I think they should be broken out even more with National Universities broken out between private and public.
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All good points. My view of the real reason to avoid lumping them together is that it’s not really possible for them to share the same ranking factors across the board in any intellectually cohesive way.
Raw research output - most large publics. Student-faculty ratio - most small privates. UG research opportunities - this one gets debated. Spending per student - most small privates. Classroom size - most small privates. Absolute total resources available - large publics.
They just have different drivers because they’re selling different things. Like I said, apples and oranges. Both fruit, yes. But that’s about where it ends.
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Like restaurants. How could critics rank the best when some are American, some are Asian and some are French. Some are just open for dinner. Selling different things. Apples and oranges. Both fruit, but that’s where it ends.
yes, there are differences between American restaurants, Asian restaurants and French restaurants. thanks for clarifying.
I just like seeing them all together.
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