To further that thought, it doesnt help any runner to have huge differences in ability-the slow kids end up crying, the fast kids slack off as there is no pace set.
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Yes, although there were no ācutsā on my sonās cross country team, there were three groups of runners - āA,ā āB,ā and āC.ā The coach didnāt care how many years you had run or if you had had inadequate coaching in middle school. If you were fast enough, you were in the A group. āVarsityā was the runners with the top seven times from the race the week before. My oldest was in the A group - he won races. My second was in the C group - he literally came in last in some races. My third was in the B group. None of them felt they were treated unfairly. Should the A group have been expected to run with the C group, so that they could pace them? Should the C group have been chastised for not being able to keep up with the A group? They all had different abilities, and that was fine.
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I canāt comment on your kids regarding their educational experiences, but at the middle schools feeding into these high schools all the 8th graders have had the same English courses, with no tracking. So they have all had roughly the same levels of preparation. And in these posts, the disparities in ability and desire of the two groups has been greatly exaggerated. The abilities of those choosing the honors courses was already wide, just like the year before. There are kids needing ābasic books and basic themesā and kids who need sophisticated books and sophisticated themes. The main differentiation between the honors and non-honors groups was not really being ability or interest, but rather parental/family savvy, for lack of a better term.
Teaching kids of differing abilities is always challenge, but such is the nature of public education. Schools must set policies which best address the needs of all the kids and the community, and these program are an attempt to do so. They arenāt killing education for any group of kids.
And were you in either district, you as a parent could do whatever you think is best regarding your kids. No one is stopping these families from supplementing in any way they see fit, from trips to the library to check out the right kinds of books, to encouraging their kids to get together outside of class to pursue their passions. Likewise, no one is stopping the parents from pulling their kids and sending them to schools with approaches which they agree. But these are public schools, serving a broad community, and so the education will not be individualized to your interpretation of your childrenās needs. They cannot afford to do so, and they see a public benefit it teaching kids together.
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It is certainly easier to teach to the lowest common denominator.
The question is whether the gifted students are indeed receiving a free and appropriate public education as they are entitled.
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Thatās not what they are trying to do here. You obviously donāt believe them, but weāll just have to disagree on that.
Exactly. And this is what has happened in the urban district nearest my home. Taking their education dollars with them. 20% decrease in enrollment in 5 years and still dropping.
But this may not happen in the schools featured in the WSJ article as private schools are so expensive there and other options are very limited.
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With perfect timing, the Culver City Middle School has posted a link on its website for how to enroll in Biology Honors class as an 8th grader before high school. I guess they didnāt get the anti-honors memo:
So does this mean that they are all on the same level and that only later large disparities just pop-up out of nowhere? Or is it maybe that the teachers really know but do t want to admit that?
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That preparation resulted in some scoring 99% on the State 8th grade exams in language arts and some scoring 20%. Equal preparation does not guarantee equal results.
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The real reason it wonāt likely happen at these schools is because these are considered to be pretty solid public options, and people are clamoring to get in. Few here seem to want to acknowledge that.
Also some of (but not all) of the families in these communities have very different idea on the goals of public education than those who regularly post here. They like the idea of a public school serving the needs of everyone. They want their kids to attend classes with diverse students. They donāt want their kids attending classes largely segregated by race and income. Ironically, there are even parents who have sent their kids to privates because of the internal segregation that has long existed within many of the public options in the area. Classes at privates were more diverse that classes at some publics. Santa Monica and Culver City may lose some families, but they may be attracting others.
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Culver City High currently is the 26th most ethnically diverse high school of the 3892 in California, per public school review. Seems unlikely parents are seeking private school for diversity.
Note: if you have kids that have academic needs that are not being addressed, then the public schools are not serving the needs of āeveryoneā
Also, itās not hard to find private or charter schools with globally diverse students from a broad ses spectrum. The only differences perhaps will be greater demands on studies and respect for teachers and fellow students. This is why I believe that law should allow educational tax money to follow the student. Unfortunately, in some places this is not the case because the status quo demands a captive market.
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I think athletic development practices arenāt always the best guide for academic policies but this might be a useful example of where there can be some alignment.
I donāt disagree with anything you wrote. My kids are runners (good ones) and Iāve coached for a long time.
Thereās no question that athletic development requires appropriate grouping and training differentiation. For me, most seasons itās more like 5 groups and theyāre fluid from year to year, within a season, and from workout to workout.
But the faster kids donāt sign up for honors Track and XC and the others for regular. Everyone signs up for the same thing and we do our athletic version of in-class differentiation.
Every good coach knows that some of the slower 9th graders will develop into some of the faster 12th graders; or, in some cases the slow 9th grader will be fast by the end of the season. So, fluid movement between groups is essential to deliver developmentally appropriate training and racing to every athlete.
If the administration came to me and suggested a āseriousā team and a ārecā team, Iād be against it and Iād point out that some of the kids who sign up for the ārecā team initially are the same kids who eventually could, under our current structure, compete for state championships and in college. Placing into a ārecā track would hinder their development both in the short and long term, weād identify their talent too late or not at all, and/or theyād never think they could venture out of the rec track.
In our experience, which I shared above, this is something like what the English teachers at our school were trying to accomplish: developmentally appropriate 9th grade English for all, with better fluidity to move among groups and pathways. There was no intent to diminish what the motivated kids were learning or to affect the structure in other disciplines like math (which are different and so should be treated differently). My understanding is thatās what the rationale is in these districts under discussion.
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The WSJ article notes that the Black students made up about the same share of grade 12 AP English (14%) as the overall student body (15%) and it was only Latino students (of the three groups for which data were given) that were under represented (13% of AP English vs. 37% of overall student body).
I believe someone upthread mentioned that there are many ESL students at the school.
How much of the low URM representation in AP English is language related?
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Again, understanding the local situation helps.
Both these districts are ethnically diverse (CC moreso), but what was happening starting in 9th grade was that classes within the school segregated by race. A disproportionate percentage of higher SES, less URM families were insisting on taking the honors English classes, while lower SES, higher URM families were ending up in the non-honors track. As English is often the building block of the schedule (bc everyone takes it all four years) the impact was felt in other classes as well, and the schools ended up with somewhat segregated classes within a desegregated school, and the divisions stuck throughout the high school experience, even though teachers did not think it accurately reflected a huge distinction in ability/effort/etc. between the groups.
Unfortunately, this is somewhat common at Los Angeles area public schools. Even if the schools are diverse, they end up segregated within the school based on race and SES. It ends up a school within a school. Some parents donāt want to send their kids to segregated schools within schools.
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That is my understanding as well. It seems some wonāt believe this is even a possibility.
To which school are you referring? Culver City High has some ESL students but no where near 24%. Iād guess 5% tops. Iād guess Santa Monica has less that CC, but donāt have the figures.
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Are you saying that students who choose certain advanced classes end up being tracked together with other students (even in the non-advanced classes), simply because of how the schedule works out? Iāve definitely seen that happening at our school.
For example, a certain type of student takes Latin (which is only offered in one period per level, so it constrains the schedule), along with Advanced Math (only offered in certain slots), and the AP option for Chemistry (only two periods of this available), and this can be enough to end up slotting the kid into other classes with a similar mix of kids all day.
Many honors track kids remark favorably on this de facto segregation. I have heard kids say, āAfter you get through 9th grade, you donāt have to worry so much about being in class with those non-honors kids any more.ā However if the goal is de-segregation, it is a problem.
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I never doubted that the intentions were good, even if they pave the way ā¦
What is the developmentally appropriate book for 9th grade English in a class that has students reading levels at the 7th-12 grades? Do you go for the grade level and thus exclude the 25% reading below grade level and the 20% who are well above grade level? Excludes close to half the class that way.
Do you try to be inclusive and find a book most can read? Gets more kids involved even if numbingly boring. Is that developmentally appropriate? We seem to accept that the special ed kids have different developmental needs but not the gifted kids.
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The data in the article are for Culver City.
Thatās my understanding.
Teaching is difficult, but this dilemma existed for the same kids in 8th grade. As for these courses, my understanding is that these courses are geared toward college prep, with extra help for those who need it. Also, even in the honors courses there was a wide range.
Looks like it varies between 3-5% from year to year. EdData - School Profile - Culver City High