WUSTL vs. Brandeis. How much in loans is too much? And other stuff.

<p>Over 4 years, how much is too much in terms of loans? Is $30k excessive? $50k?
Also the basic question is Wash U for 8k-12k in loans per year or Brandeis for about 3k in loans per year. Benefits of each, detriments to having debt after graduation, environments, just could use some general advice.</p>

<p>Quiet Day.</p>

<p>Easter. Lots of us are drunk on chocolate. Urp.</p>

<p>$30K in loan debt for four years of college is pretty manageable. $50K is pushing it unless your undergrad major is in something like engineering or nursing with very strong, well-paying job opportunities right after graduation.</p>

<p>I plan on being an English major. So not sure if I’ll have any extra money after grad school.</p>

<p>Well, then you might want to read the recent article on how students with doctorates in English are faring: <a href=“http://www.grad.washington.edu/envision/PDF/TenYearsLater.pdf[/url]”>http://www.grad.washington.edu/envision/PDF/TenYearsLater.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>With a median time to complete a PhD of 9 years (half who finished took longer, half shorter) PhDs in English are a long course to set out upon, with uncertain job prospects.</p>

<p>I’d be especially wary of taking on any debt you absolutely don’t need to for undergraduate work. </p>

<p>Both Brandeis and Wash U are great schools, though I am not sure how they each are in terms of English departments.</p>

<p>The Brandeis English department is top notch–and the professors are great. In case you haven’t seen it, here’s a link to a Newsweek article on professors who change lives featuring Professor Bill Flesch of the Brandeis English Department.</p>

<p>[Four</a> Great College Professors - Newsweek.com](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/id/210908]Four”>Four Great College Professors)</p>

<p>I would pick Brandeis even if it were the more expensive of the two schools. Admittedly, I’m a biased Brandeis alum, but, in my opinion, Brandeis has an exciting intellectual environment that I would compare to its UAA sister school, U of Chicago (FYI its President is a Brandeis alum), only Brandeis’ is more relaxed and more undergraduate-oriented. If you’re the kind of person who is an intellectual and/or creative sort who is friendly and comfortable with himself or herself and not competitive or pretentious, then you would fit in at Brandeis. Intellectual but down-to-earth and friendly I think is an apt description of the student body. Unlike some preppy place or frat-oriented environments where social interraction is based on the “exclusivity” of the frat system, Brandeis has a welcoming, relatively-nonjudgmental environment–yet there are some off-campus frats for those who like what they have to offer. There is no pressure to party, but parties are there if you want them. Often social interaction centers around the numerous clubs and other terrific extracuriculars like theater and music.</p>

<p>As evidence of the stimulating students that go there are the distinguished alumni who were of course students at one time–to name just a few: Nobel Prize winner for chemistry Rod Mackinnon, Fields Medal winning physicist Edward Witten (often called “Einstein’s successor”), 3-time Pulitzer Prize winner Tom Friedman of the NY Times, The Earth is Flat etc; Mitch Albom of Tuesday’s with Morrie (about his Brandeis professor) etc., the Creators/Producers of Friends; actress Debra Messing; Robert FX Sillerman (billionaire businessman–currently owner of American Idol and Graceland), Jeff Lurie owner of the Philadelphia Eagles and Christy Hefner, former CEO of Playboy). I went to school with several of these folks and can tell you that it’s no coincidence that these fascinating alumni have emerged from the stimulating brew that is Brandeis. Also, if you’re into social justice, Brandeis is a very exciting place to be (Angela Davis, Abbie Hoffman, I could go on, are alums as well). Wash U is a great school as well, but it is in St. Louis and not Boston. Where would you prefer to spend four years?</p>

<p>It’s worth noting that Brandeis is not located IN Boston, but rather very NEAR Boston. Also, OP–are you Jewish? Brandeis is a nonsectarian Jewish university, a paradox that some are more comfortable with than others.</p>

<p>–From the POV of an LAC girl who will be going to Swarthmore and doesn’t much care for either school.</p>

<p>I plan on getting an MA in English, not a PhD but regardless, I see your point. B77, you do make Brandeis seem amazing and I will that article; however, when I visited Brandeis, the English department seemed lacking in class variety and the professors I met didn’t seem as interesting as I would have liked. I could be wrong or it may just have been an off day. I am in fact Jewish and the nonsectarian Jewish element of Brandeis is a plus and a minus, but in my mind, they equal out in the end. Can anyone give me an idea of Wash U’s English department’s reputation and if it is significantly better enough to take out so much extra debt?</p>

<p>Please visit the following link to the WUSTL forum on the English department specifically. The English department at WUSTL is great.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/washington-university-st-louis/896824-wash-u-tufts.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/washington-university-st-louis/896824-wash-u-tufts.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Have you visited both places yourself? Visiting in person, and speaking with students and faculty in each area (and from other academic areas, too) will really help to inform your decision.</p>

<p>If you can’t visit, there is a WUSTL student group called Bear Buddies on facebook that you can contact a current student in each major. </p>

<p>Finally, regarding financial aid. Hopefully WUSTL can negotiate your package a bit. Even if they can’t, though… the amount of loans you’ll take out is not back-breaking at all. If you want to get your PhD eventually, most PhD programs actually fund your cost so you don’t pay money for it (you’ll probably do some teaching to cover some of that, but generally they’re funded programs). And, in my personal opinion, the difference in loans between WUSTL and Brandeis is small enough that you should go to whichever school you like most.</p>

<p>I think Brandeis is a great school but it really isn’t in the same type of category at WUSTL. I’m really not someone who buys into rankings much. I mean, you won’t find a difference between the #1st ranked school and the #5th ranked school. But, I think you will find a difference between the #12th ranked school and the #31st ranked school. I think once you start going below the top 25/top 30 schools, there’s going to be more and more of a noticeable difference in academic focus, faculty renown, curriculum opportunities, research opportunities, student life amenities, and the type of student that enrolls there. Sure, you can always FIND those opportunities at any school, but the extent/breadth of them will start to vary more as the ranking gap increases. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the differences between WUSTL and Brandeis will be major in any of those categories, but there will certainly be a difference. </p>

<p>You can define a school by it’s peers, and WUSTL’s peers are going to be Northwestern/UPenn/Duke/Brown/Cornell/Vanderbilt. Brandeis’s peers are going to be Tufts/Wake Forest/Boston College/USC/W&M/Lehigh. </p>

<p>In the end, I think that the relatively small difference in loans is very much worth it to justify going to WUSTL. If you are deciding between schools in the same “peerage”, then it is TOTALLY encouraged to go to the more inexpensive option. However, once you start considering schools in different peer ranges, then its completely reasonable to spend a little more money to go to a higher peer-ed school. If the difference is Full Tuition scholarship versus no scholarship money at all, then I do think it’s logical to turn down the school in a higher peer group. In that Full Tuition versus no money case, it’s probably justifiable to jump down two peer ranges. But, if the difference amounts to a few thousand dollars per year, then… I think you get the point I’m making. </p>

<p>Wash U is an amazing school, and if you are looking for the best-of-the-best academics with an involved and pretty laid-back student body in/nearby a bigger city, then you really can’t find many better options than WUSTL.</p>

<p>I have visited Brandeis and while I liked it, I didn’t love it. I am visiting WUSTL in a few weeks and will get to see more then. Depending on Wash U’s renegotiation. It could be 50k of loans a year (about 12k a year) versus 12k of loans (3k a year). How much would 50k in loans after college hurt me?</p>

<p>I think $30K is too much, especially for an English major-- and you do need to keep in mind that your financial aid packages in subsequent years is likely to include a higher loan burden. </p>

<p>Brandeis has an excellent reputation and a degree from Brandeis is well respected. </p>

<p>Actually – if I was your parent, this would be a no brainer. The Wash U. admission pack would be tossed in the trash.</p>

<p>My parents are worried about my future debt but not enough to prevent me from making this decision. I would be taking out the loans myself. Still the same $20k. Depending on how close Wash U’s revised package is, if they can add any more money, it’s still an option. Throwing an admission packet in the trash is puerile, especially considering negotiating with them has resulted in a boon – albeit still less than I require.</p>

<p>$50K in debt coming out of college as an English major (or anything similar) will crush you. </p>

<p>Or course it is fine to negotiate to see if you can get better. What would the interest rate be on those loans? Brandeis is obviously limiting your loan obligation to subsidized Staffords, if you qualify for them. Interest won’t run until you graduate, and your monthly payments will be less than $200.</p>

<p>With $50K in debt, interest will be running on most of the debt while you are in school – unless you are able to afford to make interest-only payments – so to borrow $50K you may find out that you owe a lot more the day you graduate. Let’s say that $32K of that is unsubsidized, at 8% interest, with $18K as a subsidized Stafford. That means by the time you’ve graduated, you’ve accumulated maybe another $14K or so in interest charges, so you walk out of college with roughly $64K of debt. </p>

<p>Now what are your plans for graduation?</p>

<p>Are you getting need based aid only from Brandeis? Or did Brandeis throw in some merit aid?</p>

<p>Wash U offered me subsidized Stafford and Perkins loans totalling up to $7500. Noot sure how interest accrues from Perkins. Brandeis is $25k in merit with whatever need I needed thrown in there or so they say.</p>

<p>Keilexandra, Yeshiva University is a Jewish school. Brandeis is NOT a Jewish school. It is a nonsectarian school founded by Jews who wanted to create an elite institution free from the discriminatory practices of the ivies. It does attract a lot of Jews and has substantial departments in things like Hebrew and Near Eastern studies, subjects that are of interest to many Jews. It is no more Jewish than Swarthmore is Quaker. There are other nonsectarian schools that have similarly strong departments in these areas. Brandeis is now less than 50% Jewish.</p>

<p>Can you explain exactly what is the “paradox that some are more comfortable with than others”.</p>

<p>To the OP, I think this is a no-brainer. You’re going to Brandeis, congrats. </p>

<p>$64K at 8% payable monthly over 10 years is 776.50/month, or $9318/yr. That’s probably more than you should even spend on your apartment when you graduate. You will be miserable with that for just undergrad. </p>

<p>Let’s be the most generous, and say that you can get the nonsubsided Stafford loan rate of 6.8% and it’s only for the 50K. That is still $575/mo or $6900/yr. Compare that with 12K at 6.8%: $138/mo or $1657/yr. It’s the difference between paying for an extra apartment and paying for extra groceries. Like I said, no brainer. </p>

<p>I would borrow the 50K to go for something like MIT for engineering, where you’re likely to be able to afford to pay it back. Not for this.</p>

<p>64k does seem undoable, especially with that kind of interest. However, if it were only 30k (my best case scenario) versus 12k, I think the extra 18k would be a worthwhile investment.</p>

<p>Both the Brandeis and the Washington University English Departments are superb! Academically you can’t go wrong.</p>

<p>Please, please do not go way in debt to get an undergraduate degree in English, esp. if you plan to go to graduate school afterward. If you have undergraduate debts, you will most likely have to take time off to work and pay them off or at least down before going to grad school. It takes most people a long time to get a PhD and thereafter job prospects are bleak; successful candidates for academic jobs MUST be prepared to move anywhere in the country (or out of it) for employment. Often even those who do get fulltime employment start out in one or more one-year replacement positions before securing a tenure-track job. All this bouncing around gets harder and harder to do as you get into your 30s or even early 40s and are more likely to be married/ partnered and have obligations to other people. Also, at least if you are a woman, this “slow track” forces you either to forego children, or to have them while you are trying to establish yourself professionally/get a permanent job/publish enough to get tenure.</p>

<p>Really, you can’t go wrong with either. Both are great schools. At Brandeis we’re talking $12K in loans whereas at Wash U more like $32-48K in loans. $12K is definitely manageable even with a low-paying salary; $30,000 is fine, but the high end of that WUSTL loan is kind of pushing it. The difference between $12K and $32K on standard repayment is $138/month vs. $368/month. I can think of a few things I can do with that extra $230, but if I really wanted to go to WUSTL I’d sacrifice it for a couple years.</p>

<p>Also, people make assumptions about how much your major is going to net you. How much you make depends not as much on your major as your field and what you decide to do with that major. A first-year English teacher in the Northeast makes ~$40,000 per year and could probably handle $30K in debt comfortably. But seriously, you could major in English and become a hedge fund manager. I had some friends in undergrad who had humanities majors and ended up working for Goldman Sachs making ~$60K per year, in which case $50K in debt won’t crush you. I still wouldn’t recommend it, but let’s not fall trap to the major = salary fallacy. There is a correlation but there’s still a wide range within that.</p>

<p>Were I you I’d probably choose Brandeis. It’s a well-recognized, great school; you’ll get a great education there and you’ll come out with very little debt.</p>

<p>For the record I don’t plan on going for a PhD or becoming a teacher. I want to be in the book publishing industry or maybe something else but nothing academic. I know Brandeis is a great school, but Wash U seems amazing.</p>