Yale vs. Swat?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>Hi, I'm an international student that is deeply interested in Swarthmore for its academic excellence and what seems like a wonderful atmosphere and personality that fits mine. I like it's smallness and it's reputed "nerdiness".</p>

<p>However, having been accepted to both Swat AND Yale, my family and I are in a bit of a quandary. Yes, Swarthmore may be a better fit, but could it be that Yale outweighs that with its prestige, reputation, resources, faculty, and, most importantly, post-graduation success (I intend to get a Ph. D in one of the sciences)?</p>

<p>In other words, can Swarthmore offer the same or approximately the same opportunities for a Ph. D-seeking student as Yale would?</p>

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<p>You can look at this report to see where Swarthmore graduates have gone in their first year after graduating from college, arranged by major. <a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/careerservices/Post-Graduation%20Plans%20by%20Major%202004-2012.pdf[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/administration/careerservices/Post-Graduation%20Plans%20by%20Major%202004-2012.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
You will see that many physics majors who go to grad school go to many of the top rated programs. Chemistry and Biology majors seem to get in to great programs, too. Math, not so much.</p>

<p>One of the differences between a great LAC like Swarthmore and a great research university like Yale, both real and perceived, is the opportunity for undergraduate research. At Swarthmore the professors do not have graduate students to work on their research. So for the experimental sciences, in particular, there are many opportunities for undergraduate research for essentially any student who wants to do research. But the research may not be as “cutting edge” as the research done at Yale. Of course at a research university, the best student opportunities for research are taken by the graduate students. How much and what kind of research is done by undergraduates at Yale? I don’t have first hand knowledge, so that is something you might want to investigate and compare with what you may be able to learn about Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>I have to disagree with dadx3. You can get undergraduate research wherever you go. Yale is no exception. My freshman friend, majoring in Econ, got a research opp with the chemical engineering dept at Yale. My other friend, at Princeton, has a research opp at the Environmental institute there. I have been doing research at Swat this whole year. I would say the only distinction is that they will probably be working with the graduate students while I have been working directly with a professor. But the tradeoff is their research is more high-power and the departments are more well known.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore has the 3rd highest percentage of its students going on to earn Ph.D behind only Caltech and Harvey Mudd. Just saying…</p>

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<p>So I’m not sure what exactly moonmain is disagreeing with. As I said, the best opportunities for research at research Us are for graduate students. I pointed out that I didn’t have first hand knowledge of the undergraduate research opportunities at Yale and advised OP to investigate. I’m not surprised that there are research opportunities for many undergraduates at Yale, but imagine that they are somewhat different in character to those at Swarthmore as moonman has described.</p>

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<p>We might be able to help if you’re more clear about what you expect to do in the future. I give a few examples of post-college scenarios, and address the relative strengths of Yale, Swarthmore in achieving these goals. I assume that outcome is all that matters to you, and, indeed, you don’t have strong preference for one school’s “vibe” over the other. I’m a recent Swat alumnus.</p>

<p>I. Get a job in finance/consulting. It’s very difficult (though not impossible –– I have friends who did it) to place into top finance/consulting firms from Swat. This is mostly for two reasons, it seems. First, no one in non-nerdy finance/consulting has heard of Swat so the “Swarthmore name” doesn’t carry much weight at the usual “not-nerdy” finance/consulting firms (though Google seems to really like Swatties). Second, no one at Swat really wants to go work in industry, so it’s hard to find student mentors (or friends with connections) for guidance.</p>

<p>II. Get a PhD in Math or Economics. Swat hasn’t been placing very well into math programs. Other posters know more about this than I do. Important might be that Swat doesn’t offer graduate math courses, and these days math departments want to see these courses on applicants’ transcripts. However, you should carefully note that this observation is only relevant to you if you are already <em>very</em> good at math. This is important because while Swat’s math department is really good in helping “novice mathematicians” develop, friends from Yale have told me that Yale doesn’t serve the “novice mathematician” very well. </p>

<p>Similarly, in economics Swarthmore hasn’t been placing students consistently into the top 5-7 (we’ve instead been placing more consistently into the top 15 ––*a big difference in economics) for a number of reasons, but perhaps simply because (i) Swat honors courses aren’t viewed by admissions committees as graduate level courses, and (ii) Swat econ professors are not so well known. In economics, “who you know” seems to matter, so Yale for the aspiring economist seems like the better choice.</p>

<p>III. PhD in Computer Science, Physics, Chemistry, Biology. Swarthmore places extraordinarily well in these disciplines (seriously, it’s kind of crazy how well we place in these disciplines). If you’re interested in these areas and like the Swarthmore vibe, you’ll have a wonderful time at Swat, and may get to do more interesting work in the lab as you won’t have to deal with grad students who might make you go do boring stuff.</p>

<p>–</p>

<p>To answer your question, if you are nearly certain that you will pursue PhD, and you think you’ll end up getting PhD in areas enumerated in III, then you can forget about “prestige, reputation, resources, faculty, and, most importantly, post-graduation success” because Swat probably “beats” (indeed, this is very “approximate”) Yale in these areas, mostly because they don’t matter in these disciplines, it seems. [For instance, in my year CMU accepted FOUR Swatties to do CS PhD in a class that has maybe 20 students. Yale doesn’t do that.] </p>

<p>However, if you’re not sure that you want to do PhD, and think that working at JPMorgan, Goldman, BCG, is something you might want to do after college, doing that is much easier coming from Yale than it is from Swarthmore. Yalies have the advantage that the Yale name will usually get them an interview that the Swarthmore name just won’t. Also these firms actively recruit at Yale, whereas they don’t at Swarthmore (which is just fine for Swatties, because very few students want to work there). </p>

<p>Bottom line, perhaps, for disciplines in category III, you should choose whichever school you like better and forget about prestige (seriously), because you’ll probably have a more interesting time at Swarthmore (liberal arts college, especially Swarthmore, is more socially & intellectually “interesting” than University, in general, I think) than at Yale. Swat is a big name in academia, and you can hold your head high coming from Swat in PhD. If you’re in category II, you should probably go to Yale. If you’re in category I, Yale prestige actually matters and you should go to Yale.</p>

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<p>fhimas88888888, can you please get me some enlightment/education on details with classification in your post, like ‘PhD in areas enumerated in III’, ‘disciplines in category III’, ‘category II’, ‘category I’</p>

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<p>See the categories I enumerate: Category I for banking/consulting, category II for math/Econ PhD, … As I write in my first post.</p>

<p>Make sense?</p>

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<p>yes, I got it now. How about engineering, is it in category III?</p>

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<p>I can’t really comment. I only have friends who have done masters in engineering. They have placed very well into these programs. I recall friends complaining about inability to specialize in engin- the engin department is as “liberal arts” as the rest of the school; I don’t know how that affects students abilities to place into grad schools. Maybe swatties think engin is too applied ;). Or maybe I just think that. </p>

<p>If you know what kind of engin you want to do, definitely email the department and see what they say. Otherwise I imagine you’re better off at Harvey Mudd, Stanford, Berkeley, or MIT.</p>

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<p>A large number of swatties go to McKinsey, and then usually to HBS after a couple of years. If you are interested in consulting, this is considered to be the place to be. Finance possibly fewer, although quite a few have gone on after graduation to work at the Federal Reserve.</p>

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<p>@fhimas88888888
Thanks for the extremely thorough reply, it’s been a great help :)</p>

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<p>Swat the place to be for consulting right out of college? I have <em>never</em> heard that. Come on, BCG doesn’t even stop on campus. The fed is not “finance”.</p>

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<p>I’m a current student and fhimas’s advice is pretty accurate. I have lots of friends who are math majors and love the department, but they study math because they like math, not because they want to get a PhD in math (most of these people also fall in the “novice mathematician” category, people who didn’t think they would end up as math majors). Some of the really good math students end up going for physics, I think.</p>

<p>The CS department really does amazing work with placement in industry (although currently Google is the only big company that recruits on-campus) and academia (especially), given that it prioritizes teaching “novices.” The department has also worked hard to attract women, who currently make up a consistent 1/3 of the majors/minors.</p>

<p>I don’t know anyone who wants to pursue a PhD in engineering. Most of my academia-oriented engineer friends are also CS majors and would rather do a PhD in CS, and I think the same is often the case for physics/engin double majors.</p>

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<p>fhimas I think he meant McKinsey is the place to be. (maybe…)</p>

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<p>what moonman said. McKinsey is the place to be…</p>

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<p>I’m making this choice too. Which do you think is better for someone hoping to get a PhD in History? Also, I know grading is harder at Swarthmore and that actually kind of makes me proud to go there but that Yale name is a big draw I have to admit. It sounds like Yale is planning to change its grading so that it’s more like Swarthmore. Do you think that might happen and that Yale grading will become less inflated? I know its might sound crazy but I really want to be challenged and don’t want to just get the easy “A”. I know I work harder that way and learn more.</p>

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<p>It’s hard to guess about what will happen at Yale re grading. </p>

<p>I contend (not so controversially, I think) that the workload is uniformly larger at Swat, in the sense that the average swat class will be more demanding than the average Yale class. </p>

<p>If you’re set on PhD in history, you can basically forget about “the name” factor - Swat remains a big name in some parts of academia, including history, though you may want to email the departments to find out about placement of aspiring historians. </p>

<p>However, if you want to study history and aren’t “set” on PhD, Yale is a safer “life” bet, as you’ll likely be able to get jobs in private sector that usually aren’t available to swat history grads.</p>

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<p>In short, perhaps, you might call Swat an “academia machine” that specializes in sending alumni to grad school, whereas Yale tends to have niches that support more life goals. I think for the young academic Swat is more invigorating, but I’m probably biased. ;)</p>

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<p>I like that–“academia machine”. That’s the kind of atmosphere I’m looking for. Are you majoring in history or do you know some of the professors? Which history professor might talk to me?</p>