Swarthmore vs Stanford

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
1

<p>Would you choose Swarthmore over Stanford??? I have gotten into both, together with Dartmouth and Berkeley. (Waitlisted at Amherst) </p>

<p>I am an international student so naturally, prestige means everything to my parents at this point of time. But I just received the Swarthmore package and it sounds totally cool and great!! Totally a great place to learn and have fun. I wanna make an informed decision! And as fast as possible too, so I can take myself off some lists so others can get in. </p>

<p>Money is not an issue so tell me about the secret things internationals wouldn't think about! Things like weather! Lessons! Personal experiences! Have you visited the campus? I live so far away I've never gotten to see these things, and will not be able to go for Ride the Tide because it's simply too expensive to fly from Asia to America. Please reply, or PM me! :)</p>

2

<p>Lookie:</p>

<p>We need to start with what Stanford and Swarthmore are. Stanford is a research university -- think of a company with many divisions. One division is the undergrad school (teaching 4-year college students). Other divisions teach grad students. Others teach professional students (law school). And, one of the largest divisions is the research division -- the school contracts with governments and corporations to do research projects. You are only concerned with the first division -- the undergrad teaching -- as resources invested in the other divisions have no benefit to the four year college students. In fact, those divisions divert attention from four-year students -- professors split their time between their research jobs and their teaching, between grad students and undergrads, etc. Among research universities, Stanford is one of the best in the United States.</p>

<p>Swarthmore is a much smaller business. It only has ONE division -- undergrad 4-year students. Virtually every dollar they spend is spent on undergrad students. The professors are hired and evaluated based on teaching 4-year students. Grad school students do not teach because there aren't any. Swarthmore is one of the top undergrad only schools in the United States.</p>

<p>Because of its size, Stanford is better known among the general population -- just in the same way that a large corporation with many divisions is better known than a smaller company that builds ultra-premium products in just one category. So, by your parents' thinking on "prestige" (i.e. brand-name recognition), Stanford is clearly the choice. Within the academic community (i.e. grad schools, professors, people who really know education), I would say they are about the same. Swarthmore is perceived by those who know as being perhaps the best, most rigorous undergrad educations in the country.</p>

<p>Although what the two schools teach is similar, the style of education is very different. At Swarthmore, there are only 1500 students. Classes are very small. You will know your professors by their first names, and vice versa. Stanford has 6500 undergrads, plus all of the grad students, so it is a much larger experience. Larger classes, larger campus. More options, but less personalized and more of the red-tape that you get with any large corporation. Think of the difference between shopping at a small boutique store and shopping at a large department store. </p>

<p>Swarthmore tends to be very "academic" in focus. Perhaps because of the close contact with professors and opportunities for undergrad research, Swarthmore produces a very large percentage of future PhDs. 21% of all its graduates went on to get PhDs in the most recent 10 year period -- the third highest percentage in the United States behind two tech schools (CalTech and Harvey Mudd). Stanford is also high on that list -- #19 in the the country with 11% of its grads going on to get PhDs (Amherst is #18).</p>

<p>On average, Swarthmore is probably more intense, rigorous, and challenging academically. It has always attracted students who enjoy being challenged in the classroom, so it's developed into a particular quality of the school.</p>

<p>Both have a beautiful campus. Both are convenient to major cities -- although Swarthmore is more convenient for students without cars, since it has a train station right on campus. Stanford is convenient to San Francisco. Swarthmore is convenient to Philadelphia (20 minutes) and New York City (2 hours). Stanford has milder weather. Swarthmore's climate is fairly moderate, but you will get four definite seasons and a couple of snowstorms in winter. There are cultural differences between the west coast and the east coast of the US, but they are probably too complex to easily explain.</p>

<p>Both have signficant international enrollment and a lot of diversity on campus, so I think you would be comfortable at either school. It will probably be a little easier to make friends and find a comfortable group at the smaller school. Stanford is large enough that it's a bit like finding friends in a big city. Both have huge (and nearly identical) per student endowments. They are among the wealthiest schools in the country in terms of resources.</p>

<p>They are both superb choices, so either way you choose, you win. I would, personally, choose either Stanford or Swarthmore over your other two options -- Dartmouth or Berkeley.</p>

<p>Big picture? Swarthmore provides the more focused undergrad education (many students go to Swarthmore for undergrad and then Stanford for grad school). Stanford has more brand-name recognition, which is often the deciding factor for international students. Take your pick.</p>

<p>I would personally choose Swarthmore over Stanford for the quality of the undergrad education and the unusual sense of community on campus. But, that's a personal preference and I certainly wouldn't say that somebody else couldn't make the opposite choice. Many students who attend Swarthmore chose it over Stanford and, obviously, many students who attend Stanford chose it over Swarthmore. I would guess that most people who get into both choose Stanford based on brand-name recognition.</p>

3

<p>lookie,
It really depends on what you are looking for in college. What are your interests? What are you thinking to major in? What was your high school like?</p>

<p>My son is a junior at Stanford, and my daughter is a sophomore at Swarthmore (she was admitted to both and chose Swarthmore over Stanford). Each one of my kids is very happy with his/her respective choice. A lot depends on your personal preferences. My daughter even prefers the weather at Swarthmore, because she loves the distinct seasons, even though it is considered a consensus that you can't beat Palo Alto's weather.</p>

<p>If you have some more specific questions, feel free to ask, and I'll try to be helpful. You can PM me if you wish.</p>

4

<p>My experience as an undergraduate at Swarthmore and a graduate student at Stanford is 30+ years old, but probably still indicative. My best teacher I ever had was a prof at Swarthmore. I found the graduate school course work at Stanford fairly easy, at least in the first year, after doing the Honors program at Swarthmore. The first 2 years I was at Stanford the professors who won the undergraduate teaching award were denied tenure - an indication of where a research university like Stanford puts its emphasis.</p>

5

<p>STANFORD.</p>

<p>Swarthmore is a good school, but it is not that well known internationally. You will get blank stares from people when you tell them where you go, but that doesn't make Swarthmore any worse than Stanford. Just unknown relative to Stanford, the Ivies, MIT, Duke, UChicago, or the prestigious state universities.</p>

<p>More resources at Stanford and probably better student life, activities, dorms, just because of the size. Also probably more diversity in student interests. There will be jocks, artists, writers, musicians and more at Stanford. These types of students don't go to Swarthmore in significant numbers. That's what Swat students say on various online discussion boards. Students at Swarthmore tend to go on to get graduate degrees, so student life will be just what you expect from a school where many if not most of the students want to get a PhD. That has its benefits, but many think it is a stifling and limited environment at times.</p>

<p>Check out what Swat students have to say on LiveJournal, the Daily Jolt, their own student newspaper. Do the same for Stanford. </p>

<p>Stanford's resources and activities will be unlimited, while I don't think anyone can say the same for Swarthmore.</p>

6

<p>Dartmouth and especially Berkeley would also have the same advantages as Stanford.</p>

7

<p>I think it would be a good idea for lookie, the OP, to contact other international students from his/her country at Swarthmore and Stanford and see what they say. </p>

<p>There must have been a reason for him/her to even think of Swarthmore, as opposed to just the very big name schools like Stanford or Harvard, so we don't know the original reason for applying.</p>

<p>Like interresteddad said, Stanford is better known internationally, but there are differences in the educational opportunities. Both are good choices and s/he can't go wrong either way. I don't know from what was asked, if lookie is going into a field where the name recognition of Stanford would help. Getting into graduate school would be fine from either school, because both schools are well-recognized in the academic world.</p>

<p>Another point is that it is obviously an easier trip back to Asia from California, although plenty of people fly from the US east coast to Asia on a regular basis. Lookie, do you have any relatives in the US and where are they located?</p>

8

<p>I think that what was very attractive for Swarthmore for me were the academic opportunities available. It seems to me (and everything is from second, third, fourth-hand sources) that it is a great place for learning and as an international, I want to learn alot. I mean, going overseas is a rare chance because it means getting a scholarship in my country to study overseas. I have gotten one and now just have to find myself the best education there is. The 8:1 student-lecturer ratio and size of the school population is a very big pull for me. And an international undergrad also sent me an email, telling me about how supportive Swarthmore is of its international students and stuff. But she is on scholarship from Swarthmore, and I will not be, so I was wondering if the same kind of support is given to those who are not. I normally just take the diversity issue for granted at universities like these. Which may have been a mistaken assumption on my part. :X </p>

<p>I will probably major in International Relations or Political Science with a minor in English Literature. That being said, many people from my country come out with double majors (one even came out with a phd in 4 years!!! good grief.), so I may do that too. How good are these departments in both schools? </p>

<p>And nup collegialmom, I have no relatives in the US. I will be alone! Except for fellow Singaporeans, who are scattered randomly around various schools. But no family help there. </p>

<p>WRT the kind of person I am. I am more introverted than extroverted, but when thrown into a social situation, am totally at home as well. I like meeting people as much as I like doing my own thing. I am very focused, determined, love reading, writing and analysis. Yep! More humanities-oriented, than sciences. Am okay at numbers though I don't dig them. </p>

<p>Lastly, I am female! So you can call me a SHE, or use HER! With total confidence!</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
And an international undergrad also sent me an email, telling me about how supportive Swarthmore is of its international students and stuff. But she is on scholarship from Swarthmore, and I will not be, so I was wondering if the same kind of support is given to those who are not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The answer to that is definitely "yes". Everyone is treated the same at Swarthmore. Everyone can (and seemingly does) get some kind of campus job -- whether they are on scholarship or not. By school policy, virtually everything (lectures, movies, parties, concerts) is free so that wealthy and non-wealthy students are on equal footing.</p>

<p>Knowing what I see of Swarthmore as a parent, and projecting how it must be like to send a daughter halfway around the globe to college, Swarthmore is the kind of place I would want to send her to. It is a very friendly, supportive place, even if it will kick your butt from time to time academically. One of the things I like most about it is that the school probably has less segregation -- between different ethnic groups, between jocks and geeks, between internationals and Americans, between straights and gays -- of any college imaginable. If I'm not mistaken, international students have been elected senior class speaker for graduation two of the last three years.</p>

<p>Having said that, I want to be careful not to step on your parents' preference for Stanford. There is no question that Stanford has more name-brand recognition.</p>

<p>If you haven't done so, you should go to this webpage:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.swarthmore.edu/admissions/international_ambassadors.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.swarthmore.edu/admissions/international_ambassadors.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>These are current Swat students, listed by country, who serve as "international ambassadors" to answer questions from "specs" in their countries. There are two listed from Singapore -- one from Raffles and one from Hwa Chong. Click on their names for a little description and their e-mail addresses.</p>

10

<p>I don't know about all of those specific departments, but my impression is that generally students are challenged (in a good way) and engaged in their courses. This is as a parent having feedback about the college. </p>

<p>I think Swarthmore really tries to have a diverse group of students, the statistics appear to support this.</p>

<p>Lastly, I don't think they have more commitment to their own scholarship students, once you are there, everyone is treated the same, scholarship or not.</p>

<p>My impression is that if you are looking for a great liberal arts education and are willing to study hard, then Swarthmore is a good choice. </p>

<p>Are there other activities that you are interested in? What were your extracurriculars? There are a good variety of opportunities for these at Swarthmore, including those related to International Relations and Human Rights.</p>

11

<p>The way you describe yourself, I think you'll fit better at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>You'd have plenty of "educational opportunities" both at Stanford and at Swarthmore. However, at Stanford you'll have to create the opportunity to get to know your professors. For the first couple of years (at least) you classes will have well over a hundred students in them (with the exception of freshmen seminars that are caped at 12, but can be hard to get into). If personal attention and support are important to you, you'll have MUCH more of it at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Political science is a very strong (and very popular) department at Swarthmore, but all the classes are still relatively small (25 students or so), and you'll get a lot of personal attention. There is a lot of support available for international students, and I don't think it matters at all whether you are on Swarthmore scholarship or not.</p>

12

<p>As both a recent Swarthmore graduate (class of '03) and a current Stanford grad student (JD '08), let me add some personal reflections.</p>

<p>I agree with most of what interesteddad said, with some minor quibbles that aren't important here. What I would add is that the two undergraduate cultures are very different. </p>

<p>1) Swarthmore's undergrad culture is very intellectual and very left-wing: Stanford's is less of each. Dinner conversation at Swarthmore often turned to "intellectual" issues, but I've never heard this happen among Stanford undergrads. As for politics, take a look at the opinion sections of the <a href="http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/"&gt;Swarthmore&lt;/a> and <a href="http://daily.stanford.edu/"&gt;Stanford&lt;/a> student newspapers, and you'll see what I mean.</p>

<p>2) Stanford is, for a university of its caliber, unusually focused on athletics: its competitors in the Ivy League don't give athletic scholarships, but it does, and in plenty. Athletic competitions are a big deal. The enormous campus, large athletic facilities, and Medeterranean climate combine to make athletics a regular part of campus social life as well. The single biggest event each year is the "Big Game" of football against archrival Berkeley. </p>

<p>Nothing like that is true at Swarthmore. There are no athletic scholarships, and in my experience a great many people who weren't actively involved in varsity sports tended to look down on those who were at least a little bit. Economics had an undeserved reputation as a "gut major" because many football and basketball players participated. Swarthmore doesn't even have a football program today - they eliminated it, an act that would be wholly unthinkable at Stanford.</p>

<p>3) The culture at Swarthmore was also much less friendly to students interested in business careers than was the culture at Swarthmore. I can't think of a single person I knew at Swarthmore who wanted to work in an investment bank or in management consulting after graduation; there are lots of those at Stanford. interresteddad can probably come up with statistics for how many Swarthmore grads go on to careers in business, but it's surely much less than the percentage of Stanford grads who do.</p>

<p>Of course, these are just my personal experiences, and probably aren't representative. Personally, I'd choose Swarthmore again, but keep in mind that it's not a name that will impress people at cocktail parties.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
interresteddad can probably come up with statistics for how many Swarthmore grads go on to careers in business, but it's surely much less than the percentage of Stanford grads who do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No stats. But, certainly Swarthmore produces a lot of successful businessmen. Jerome Kolhberg basically invented leveraged buyout investment banking that fueled the Wall Street boom of the 1980s. His firm, Kohlberg, Kravitz, and Roberts was legendary. I think they did the Nabisco/RJ Reynolds deal, among others. I don't put any credence in MBA stats for colleges -- because MBA degrees are almost always several years down the road, I don't think that colleges have a reliable mechanism for tracking them. </p>

<p>I don't have much of any feel for Stanford. My sense is that, like Harvard, it's probably one of those schools that has two or three very distinct and separate student cultures that share a campus. I'm sure there is probably a "Swarthmore" element in the undergrad population at Stanford. Your observations sound about right to me as for the dominant culture at Stanford.</p>

<p>Bottom line: I just don't think it's possible for a research university with 7000 undergrads to provide the kind of interactive educational approach Swarthmore does. They use the research and grad schools to build a brand-name and then use the brand-name to drive a mass-market undergrad business, to a certain extent. The tenure criteria make clear where the priorities lie. I think that's probably why you see so many children of university professors at small liberal arts colleges.</p>

14

<p>Interesteddad is right that Swatties can be successful in business, and I don't mean to imply that we can't. The difference is that the typical Swattie has no interest in going into an area like marketing or finance, preferring things like academia, political activism, and the professions.</p>

15

<p>I think Swatties are just ahead of the curve. With the numbers of Econ majors doubling around the country, I'm guessing there will be a lot of underemployed i-bankers over the next few decades! Good old supply and demand.</p>

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see Swarthmore's course offerings (and students and faculty) as being heavily focused on global issues and regions of the world. It's certainly the case in the social sciences. That will position Swatties quite nicely over the next fifty years. To be truly successful in business or public policy or academia, you are going to have to be able to understand (or even better, know how to figure out how to understand) the issues in regions arounds the globe.</p>

<p>What's particularly interesting is that much of it takes place outside the boundaries of traditional "international studies". Like the Linguistics professor translating the children's books she writes into Farsi and touring Iran. Or, the music department's interest in Balinese Gamelin. Or, the dance department's program in Ghana. It's more just woven into the fabric of the place.</p>

16

<p>Thank you everyone who has contributed! This has given me alot to chew on and confirmed some of my ideas about both places. I'm going to contact a few people from both universities, talk to my parents, check out some other websites, then make a decision. :) And I'll be looking out for comments on admission weekend / Ride the Tide on both forums. </p>

<p>Thanks for your support and opinions! They've really helped.</p>

17

<p>Stanford :)</p>

18

<p>veerawudth, are you thai? i got a friend who's also thai from bangkok. his name is chai, you know him?</p>

19

<p>swarthmore :)</p>