Year abroad: UCLA vs. Berkeley vs. Georgetown vs. McGill

[tk21769]

<p>If you want to focus on the student-life side of things, try the Berkeley and Georgetown forums. See if you can’t get feedback from current or recent students. You can also try a site called *students review.com<a href=“all%20one%20word%20with%20no%20blank”>/i</a>, but take strongly negative or glowingly positive reviews with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>RML is right about DC weather, though he understates its crappiness. On paper it looks rather temperate. In actuality, temperatures swing from well below freezing in winter to swelteringly hot and humid in summer. DC occasionally gets snowstorms up to 2 feet (~30 inches once last year, as I recall), and a late summer / early fall hurricane every couple of years. </p>

<p>The Georgetown neighborhood has lots of bars, clubs, pricey restaurants and retail establishments within walking distance of the university. The nearby residential neighborhood is very stately, expensive, and pleasant to walk through. The Potomac River is a short walk away with a 19th century canal and “towpath” alongside, which you can follow on bicycle for many miles Northwest into the Maryland hills. One can row on the Potomac near the university. You can lose yourself for hours and hours in the many fine museums along the Mall in downtown DC. If you tire of that, New York City is about 3 hours away by train. Atlantic Ocean beaches are a couple hours away by car. Colonial Williamsburg or Charlottesville (Thomas Jefferson’s home town) are within 2-3 hours by car or bus, and make for very interesting sightseeing tours.</p>

<p>I’ll leave the SF Bay area to someone else to describe. SF in my opinion is the most beautiful city in America. The drive along the ocean on California Route 1, north of the city with surrounding redwood forests, is spectacular.</p>

[drax12]

<p>

@rorschachman

Weather’s a consideration, though not the biggest one (I suspect the people of Southern California might be rather shocked by my glow-in-the-dark skin :).

</p>

<p>Then you can come to sunny SoCal and try to gain a matching skin tone with your red hair … as my guess would be with your being from Dublin. ;)</p>

<p>Best of luck in your future, and you couldn’t go wrong with either Cal (Berkeley) or Georgetown.</p>

[drax12]

<p>… or whatever specific part of the UK from whence ye arrived.</p>

[RML]

<p>

Who are these mythical people outside of the US who know enough about Georgetown to know that it’s not only Catholic but Jesuit, and are aware of other Jesuit schools in the US, but don’t see any difference between Georgetown and Holy Cross or Marquette?

</p>

<p>Hanna, most of the international applicants of Georgetown, Fordham, Boston College and the Loyola schools are products of schools run by the Society of Jesus, mainly Jesuit priests. It is a huge network operating more than three thousand schools worldwide. </p>

<p>Here’s a partial list: [List</a> of Jesuit institutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jesuit_institutions]List”>List of Jesuit educational institutions - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Again, that’s just a partial list. The Society of Jesus runs elementary schools, high schools, Junior colleges, etc and they encourage their students to apply to affiliate schools.</p>

[RML]

<p>

The published numbers on student selectivity (SAT scores, admit rates) seem to show that Georgetown (along with a good 20 or more other private schools) is more selective than Berkeley (slightly more so in GU’s case), in terms of admit rates and scores.</p>

<p>Now I suppose it’s possible that Berkeley has some mysterious mojo that enables it to do a better job of selecting the best students in a way that is not fully captured by scores and admit rates alone. But I don’t think so. Big public universities (even Berkeley, I think) are more numbers-driven, less holistic than very selective private schools. Nevertheless, 20-25 private schools appear to outcompete Berkeley even in the numbers game.

</p>

<p>TK, that is entirely just your personal opinion. </p>

<p>Before you bring out SATs, lest you forget that Berkeley</p>

<ol>
<li>does not superscore SATs and Georgetown does.</li>
<li>does not weigh SATs as much as Georgetown does.</li>
<li>weighs GPA more than they do SATs. </li>
</ol>

<p>

They compete in a national market for top students, with relatively little or no regard for ability to pay. Berkeley can’t do that.

How would that make Berkeley a less prestigious school than Georgetown? Prestige does not have anything to do with the school’s inability to provide aid to poor out-of-State and international students. But like I said, more than 30% of the freshman class of Berkeley are OOS – paying the full fees, so they’re likely from rich families. That isn’t a bad thing per se. That only shows many (smart, rich) people are willing to pay full-pay for a Berkeley education.</p>

[BrownParent]

<p>I would choose UC Berkeley. Aside from the stellar academic reputation, the Bay Area is a really special place to be. You will find a magnificent diversity of people. It is a social area, you don’t need any greek system to be social. There is a wealth of interesting people and activities, culture, music, within and without the U.</p>

<p>You will have so many areas to explore, both in Berkeley, the East Bay and especially in San Francisco (there is quick Rapid Transit to the city) which has incredible sections of the city that are unique to each other. It’s a breathtaking town, a walking town and transportation via bus, metro all around are good. You can socialize with strangers very easily. The Bay Area is also extremely accessible to many beautiful natural areas, and it is a foodie town with some of the best Artisan producers and makers and farmers markets in the country, if you are into that sort of thing. You will eat well in CA.</p>

<p>UCLA would also be a fun choice. The best weather of the bunch. A pretty campus in a swanky part of town and easy quick buses to the beach (Santa Monica and Venice Beach, both great.) Much more problematic is getting around the rest of LA without a car. Some metro is in. But I think students find friends with cars and they mostly likely do stay on the Westside. There is an amazing Art Walk once a month in the Historic Downtown that used to be seedy and run down (still slightly is, but now trendily so) and now attracts 10,000 people just out partying and having a good time drinking wine and eating from the gourmet food trucks that are famous here. Just an example of the things to do. You can also ski in season (not as good access as the Bay Area like Tahoe) but some schools here host a famous day where they ski in the morning and hit the beach in the afternoon.</p>

<p>(I just skimmed this long thread, so sorry if any repeats)</p>

<p>If you pick either CA school, hopefully you will be able to visit some other parts of the area. I’m not registered at couchsurfing at the moment, but if you want free places to crash check it out and PM me and I’ll register to host you if it suits your plans and mine for timing. My daughter was raised in CA and went to the East Coast to have an away experience. And she did a semester abroad in Budapest. She did make sure to bring her boyfriend here (he’d never been) and they did a final SF to LA to Grand Canyon tour on the Green Tortoise Bus (mostly student travel) after graduation. She’s also stayed at the Green Tortoise Hostel in SF on the edge of Chinatown recently.</p>

[tk21769]

<p>

The published numbers on student selectivity (SAT scores, admit rates) seem to show that Georgetown (along with a good 20 or more other private schools) is more selective than Berkeley (slightly more so in GU’s case), in terms of admit rates and scores.</p>

<p>… Nevertheless, 20-25 private schools appear to outcompete Berkeley even in the numbers game.

</p>

<p>TK, that is entirely just your personal opinion. </p>

<p>Before you bring out SATs, lest you forget that Berkeley</p>

<ol>
<li>does not superscore SATs and Georgetown does.</li>
<li>does not weigh SATs as much as Georgetown does.</li>
<li>weighs GPA more than they do SATs.

</li>
</ol>

<p>What makes you think Georgetown weighs SATs more than Berkeley does? I can see that Berkeley weighs GPA more than SATs, according to its Common Data Set file. I don’t know what Georgetown’s practice is in that regard. Even if there’s a significant difference in practice, I’m not sure how that bears on which is more selective. Georgetown, I suspect, admits more students from private schools. This could mean that its average GPAs are understated, compared to Berkeley’s. This is something that supports your earlier point: it is hard to perfectly interpret selectivity from a couple of published stats alone. That, in turn, supports my bigger point: it is not laughably obvious that Berkeley is a far more selective school (or far superior as an undergraduate institution).</p>

<p>As for superscoring, I’m aware (and said as much above) that there are variations in how schools report test scores and other data. Georgetown’s reported numbers and Berkeley’s reported numbers are close enough that, if we applied different methods of assembling the data, it might turn out that Berkeley is actually more selective. I don’t know; I can only go on what’s reported. But … it’s not just the reported scores that suggest GU is slightly more selective than UCB. It’s the admit rates, too.</p>

<p>

They compete in a national market for top students, with relatively little or no regard for ability to pay. Berkeley can’t do that.

How would that make Berkeley a less prestigious school than Georgetown? Prestige does not have anything to do with the school’s inability to provide aid to poor out-of-State and international students. But like I said, more than 30% of the freshman class of Berkeley are OOS – paying the full fees, so they’re likely from rich families. That isn’t a bad thing per se. That only shows many (smart, rich) people are willing to pay full-pay for a Berkeley education.

</p>

<p>I’m not talking about prestige (I’ll leave that to you :)). I’m talking about the quality (the nature and the excellence) of undergraduate education, specifically as it may be affected by the composition of the selected students. </p>

<p>Take two schools that select classes with similar average GPAs and test scores. If one school is selecting from a much narrower geographic pool, and if it has a slightly higher admission rate, it stands to reason that it cannot be as discriminating in selecting those high-scoring students as the other school. The other school is selecting for high-scoring students, but also for other qualities. It can pick high-scoring students with an broad mix of talents and interests. It has a freer hand in choosing the best, most interesting candidates even if they come from out-of-state and cannot afford the costs.</p>

<p>Let me reiterate: of these two schools, for a foreign exchange student, I’d lean toward Berkeley … but in my opinion it’s not a slam-dunk case. Weigh and consider the pros and cons of both.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>I think it comes down to personal desire for DC, San Fran and LA. Personally that’s my order – with LA a very, very distant last – but different people have different tastes.</p>

[Sam_Lee]

<p>^I second that. This is just a study aboard program. Does it really matter that much which school is “better”? </p>

<p>LA is definitely the worst to me. You need a car to just get a toilet paper. It’d be a dilemma to try to get a car when it’s only one year. It’s just one more logistic issue to deal with. To me, it’s the most uninteresting city with lots of ugly spots like car wash, little strip malls, gas stations all over the place (the nicer looking spots often look fake or tacky). The beaches/beach towns nearby are nice though.</p>

<p>I personally would pick DC. It’s much closer to Europe and you will be able to come back more easily to visit the friends you’ll make.</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>

You need a car to just get a toilet paper.

I say a car beats the bus for getting “a toilet paper”.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Does it really matter that much which school is “better”?

</p>

<p>It matters desperately to RML, who cannot pass up ANY chance to assert that Berkeley is always the very bestest option for anyone, anywhere in any situation, and who is congenitally incapable of saying, “Lots of fine choices here, it’s personal preference.” It’s almost painful for him to not rank things!</p>

[qialah]

<p>The OP says he wants to study politics. IMO, that makes Georgetown the winner. If someone wants to see US national politics at work, the West Coast is not where that happens. </p>

<p>Of course if he’s interested in getting down and dirty in some state politics, then Ca would be the place.</p>

<p>In terms of weather, Berkeley in the winter gets pretty gray as well.</p>

[SFShoya]

<p>I’m a senior Georgetown student who grew up in California. i love my home and am applying to PhD programs in California (Cal being on the top of my list). I think you can’t go wrong with either program, especially for politics. I love Georgetown and I love Cal. They are very different schools, but in the undergraduate humanities/social sciences why don’t we play nice and call it a draw (I’d happily concede Cal’s probably a better place to be a science major). I think for an international student visiting for a shorter period Georgetown maybe a better fit. </p>

<p>Things to consider (this questions are not intended to guide you one way or the other)</p>

<ol>
<li>Would you prefer football or basketball? </li>
<li>Greek or non-Greek?
(if even it’s not a huge presence at Cal, it is still impacts the system) </li>
<li>Small campus/large campus (small or big population)</li>
<li>Most students live on/directly next to campus / in the city?</li>
<li>Preppy or hipster? </li>
</ol>

<p>Things intended to draw you towards Georgetown (honesty in advertising) </p>

<p>DC gives you a great advantage when it comes to important political figures: </p>

<p>In the last three weeks, and I offer no exaggeration, the people I have seen speak personally on Georgetown’s campus include </p>

<p>Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton (in separate events)
Michelle Obama (President Obama was here earlier in the year)
Al Sharpton
Jesse Jackson
the Indian Ambassador to the US
the current poet laureate, Philip Levine </p>

<p>As a senior, my education has been greatly enriched by a vast variety of people who stop by Georgetown’s campus. If you come next year, you’ll be in DC for the inauguration. The internship opportunities are definitely there for international students, just not in the US government. If you want to work for an NGO, think tank, the World Bank, lobbyist, consultants, your international status is not an issue. </p>

<p>Socially, I think Georgetown’s size is more friendly to someone new, campus is small and students live in a close radius, which is less likely to lead in isolation. Most upperclassmen live in on campus apartments/townhouses, which would put you with Georgetown students. No problems finding a college roommate. </p>

<p>I agree that traveling is also easier with DC as your hub. San Fransisco/Berkeley are a great cities, but not in close proximity to many other major cultural centers. It’s a 6/7 hour drive to LA (a beautiful drive at that), not easy to do in a weekend. I would suggest DC for the year and then using your winter break to roadtrip Highway 1. Flights aren’t too expensive. </p>

<p>I think I’ve rambled long enough. It’s a great choice either way!</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Now, now, in fairness, you can’t get Peet’s in Wash DC!</p>

[rorschachman]

<p>In response to SFShoya’s questions:

1. Don’t really care. Follow basketball a bit, but football would feel like more of a cultural experience. As you may know we don’t really have the whole intervarsity sports scene in Europe, so that’d be a fun thing to experience. Mind you, I’ve heard people say it can generate a rather hierarchical atmosphere.
2. No real preference. Again, would be interesting to experience, but I can imagine feeling a little left out, as presumably no one would want to sign up a guy who’s only going to be there for one year.
3. Would rather be on a large campus
4. Would much rather have everyone living on campus (this is quite a major consideration for me).
5. Preppy. I’m a bit of both, myself, but preppy fits better into the sort of experience (I’m using that word far too much…) I’m looking for.</p>

<p>Very interesting to hear about the speakers etc. you’ve heard at Georgetown - that’s a definite bonus. I’m a major US politics nerd, and it’d be great to be in the centre of that. On the other hand, I’d also get to know more about California state politics, about which I know little. I need to do more research on how visas work for internships etc. - obviously if it would be a possibility, Georgetown would have an advantage in that regard…</p>

[BrownParent]

<p>Just so you know, there is a Trader Joe’s in the immediate area and they have great well priced products (including toilet paper) although they are a grocer with really good coffees, fruits, nuts, all kinds of better healthy convenience foods. There are busses cris crossing the area constantly. I don’t think that should be a consideration, you wouldn’t need one for the year there.</p>

[rorschachman]

<p>Thanks BrownParent - yeah, that was definitely something I had down in the “negatives” column for UCLA, so very interesting to hear it’s not such a big deal. To be honest, most people I know who’ve visited LA have been fairly negative (the word “sprawling” crops up a lot). On the other hand, it seems to be more of a campus university than the others, and that’s exactly what I’m looking for. I feel like at this point my head’s saying Georgetown and my heart’s saying UCLA, with Cal maybe something of a compromise between the two.</p>

[warblersrule]

<p>

@BrownParent

No car needed at UCLA

Speaking as someone who frequently uses the bus system both in west LA and the greater LA area, I am skeptical of this statement. Public transportation in LA is functional and underrated, but I would definitely hesitate to consider it good. The usefulness of public transportation in LA decreases exponentially the further one needs to travel. Getting to Santa Monica is easy; getting downtown is quite a bit less so. The other day it took me well over an hour to get somewhere that would’ve taken me 20 minutes back home. Even a short jaunt up the PCH and/or to the Getty Villa takes much longer than it should – though well worth the travel time, admittedly.</p>

<p>Traveling anywhere outside the LA area is extremely difficult without a car, though making friends with people who have cars would make things a little easier. Getting to San Diego by car takes about 2 hours, for example, whereas it takes about 6 by train. Using public transit from LA to SF takes much longer (~12 hours). This is very different from DC, where other cities like Baltimore, NYC, Philly, etc. are 2-4 hours away by train/bus. This is not necessarily a bad thing; most people would find plenty in LA and the Bay area to keep themselves very occupied for a year.</p>

[drax12]

<p>

@warblersrule

</p>

<p>Traveling anywhere outside the LA area is extremely difficult without a car, though making friends with people who have cars would make things a little easier. Getting to San Diego by car takes about 2 hours, for example, whereas it takes about 6 by train. Using public transit from LA to SF takes much longer (~12 hours). This is very different from DC, where other cities like Baltimore, NYC, Philly, etc. are 2-4 hours away by train/bus. This is not necessarily a bad thing; most people would find plenty in LA and the Bay area to keep themselves very occupied for a year.

</p>

<p>No disagreements with your first paragraph, and even if things are local you’d still want to know someone who has a car or have one yourself, though depending on where you’re going, the Big Blue Bus is pretty good as BrownParent said.</p>

<p>This, your second paragraph would undoubtedly be true wrt specific sentences, but you’re not going to take public transit from LA to SF or SD; I don’t think there’s anyone who does that. If you’re taking a roadie following the football team to the Bay to play Cal in their renovated Memorial Stadium in 2012, you’re going to want to go with other students by car or to fly up for the day, say. The 300+ miles, more like 400 mi, is too daunting a task to travel by public transit. And comparing DC to NYC & Philadelphia isn’t the same comparison distance-wise.</p>

[drax12]

<p>rorschachman, you mentioned that you didn’t want to study too much in your year abroad. Just note that UCLA is on accelerated quarter (trimester) system with ~ 10 weeks per term, three per academic year. Cal is on ~ 15 week semester term, 2/year, and I don’t know what Georgetown is on.</p>