<p>Calmom, I'm going to have your quote framed:
[quote]
But the point is that the "naturally" high aptitude student often comes with poor judgment and poor study skills, whereas the kid who got the idea years before that their ability was a result of the effort they put in ends up doing better.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Great discussion, everyone.</p>
<p>momrath, your theories may be correct, but I look at the schools you listed and the places where the professors' got their PHDs and I don't see it. Well, maybe for Kenyon, but I have heard great things about that school.</p>
<p>momrath, not to be difficult, but i dont think one can use the criteria of better schooled professors to answer the question of whether better schools are better</p>
<p>I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion as we find ourselves in a very similar situation. DD has been offered a major scholarship at a not-so-top LAC, and has either been accepted or is awaiting acceptance at some of the "top schools" that have been mentioned in this thread.
Her reaction when she received the scholarship notice from the LAC surprised me - she was very pleased and said that she would strongly consider the school. Apart from congratulating her on receiving this major scholarship offer, I strongly encouraged her to visit the school as I think that she has to determine if the LAC is a "fit".
Although she has been to the area where the LAC is situated, Portland, she has not officially visited the school. The scholarship offer also came with a notice that the LAC would pay for her to attend some type of an admitted students function at that school. Unfortunately, the dates for this function conflict with our previously planned spring break trip. She might, however, be able to visit the school while we are on spring break - she is going to call the school to see if it is possible.
So, not-so-top LAC versus top school? My attitude is that ultimately she will decide. I am planning on sitting down with her and my wife after all of the acceptances are in and doing a matrix that includes things like finances (loans for both us and her, and what the school is offering), ability to study abroad, ability to come home during breaks/Thanksgiving, AP Credits accepted, etc. Not to hijack this thread, but I would appreciate input as to what other factors should be considered.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The peer group is supremely important, but at the "Second Circle" schools in addition to the very smart and accomplished kids who are lured by merit you’ll find uber-intelligent kids who don’t have the grades and scores to get admitted to super-selectives.
[/quote]
Bingo. And as long as there are some of each of those kinds of students, and they all find each other, and they're loving life and looking to share that enthusiasm, I'm feeling more confident that it'll work out.</p>
<p>I would point out that while HYP and many other schools are good in practically every field, there are State Unis and other lesser known schools that are outstanding in one or two fields. If you are lucky to know what you want, these latter can be a great bargain and the best of all worlds--scholarships, a chance to grow and be known to professors, and a peer group of good students in your field.</p>
<p>Given the competitiveness of the academic job market in many fields, it can be very difficult to get an academic job at all. This means there are more top-notch professors more evenly distributed than there used to be.</p>
<p>well, Cur, you sail your ship past the sirens
by tying yourself to 'her mast'
[ anagram of Amherst and for the record, Homerically correct]</p>
<p>Have I already said that if D had not been a pre-med she'd likely be at Yale? If not, there. I said it. ;) She'd have wanted to be a science Phd. and she would have felt that Yale degree to be very valuable but of equal importance, she'd have felt she could get a fellowship and not have to pay for science grad school. Hence the debt she will now have from med school, she would have had at Yale from U.G.</p>
<p>There are times when I wish my D had chosen Rhodes (especially when I pay bills). For my D, it wasn't about where the colleges were ranked, but where she felt the most comfortable. She figured all her choices would challenge her academically. She wanted a college with happy, intellectually curious, non-competitive students who have a great appreciation for the absurd. She found it.</p>
<p>Soon I'll be going through this process again with my son. I'm sad that his list will not include the same colleges as my daughter (I think I fell in love with them more than her), but his interests lie in a very different direction. I guess I have some more "college crushes" ahead.</p>
<p>Curm - Your daughter is clearly extremely focused (as well as smart, thoughtful, etc.). But how do you think this sort of decision might vary for a kid like mine, who is also smart but doesn't have a definite career goal and has interests in areas ranging from international studies to linguistics to chemistry?</p>
<p>Everyone must be snowed in; the posts are flying faster than the precipitation. I suggest 15 seconds of silence to recall two factors: </p>
<p>the number of students who face the top scholarship vs. prestige-factor school is vanishingly small. This just isn't a widely shared experience outside the CC hothouse.</p>
<p>besides, as a philosophical problem, Curm's daughter solved this one a long time ago: just take the top scholarship at a college that'll give you a top-school educational experience. ;)</p>
<p>OK . . . back to the posts.</p>
<p>firefly, one has to ask where she found 'happy, intellectually curious, non-competitive students who have a great appreciation for the absurd'. My dinner table? must be why my food bill is so high! C'mon, don't make me ask again.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Gosh, I don't know. I didn't agree with her choice (although I understood and appreciated it) and as you say, she had pretty dang good reasons .I made sure of that. </p>
<p>I have no idea. That's why I'm here with y'all. Wallowing in this hubbub of competing values and uncertain futures and measuring things that can't be measured by instruments we don't even trust. We are in this together, or at least - I was there until D took it out of my hands. </p>
<p>The only thing I know is that she convinced me that she had taken ownership of the process. That the decision was hers to make and she would dang sure be the one making it. And she hasn't looked back. I think I'll just have to go with that. Inform them . Advise them. Be honest with them about everything. Then let loose of them and see which way they go. ;)</p>
<p>I bet there are a lot of kids reading this post and shaking their heads back and forth while rolling their eyes...........all the while saying "parents, ya gotta love em"</p>
<p>firefly, one has to ask where she found 'happy, intellectually curious, non-competitive students who have a great appreciation for the absurd'. My dinner table? must be why my food bill is so high! C'mon, don't make me ask again.</p>
<p>yes, marathonman, she(curm's d) did answer the question of this thread. But, as JHS pointed out in response to Higherlead, there might well be fewer opportunities for such golden rings than slots at the best ivies. There are what 7,000 openings at HYP per year? Can there be a comparative number of situations such as the one Curm's daughter created/discovered? Sir, I think not!</p>
<p>Psst, ro. fireflyscout's kid is at Carleton. Don't tell her I told you.</p>
<p>I started undergrad at what is now a "third tier" LAC according to US News--Antioch College, also a college that changes lives acc to Loren Pope. It was a wonderful, magical experience. Antioch was bursting with intellectually curious and politically active kids who questioned EVERYTHING. I couldn't have wished for a better beginning to my education--plus they kicked us off campus every few months to work at JOBS. I dropped out when I realized I needed a good job immediately after graduation--no, I took a gap year. I got into Cornell nursing school, but had to get lots of prereqs so I did that at U of MN. Graduated from Cornell, later got a Masters in psych at Antioch/NE and a phD (free) at ASU. I got something different and very valuable from each place.</p>
<p>My son wants to start at a small school with happy, intellectually curious, non-competitive students who have a great appreciation--oh, wait--fireflyscout just said that. He's looking at small LACs. The only Ivy even close was Brown and it wasn't close enough. Not because Ivies aren't good or even great. They don't fit my kid for undergrad. We wouldn't want to pay any amount for a school that didn't fit and prestige and name recognition are non-starters for us.</p>
<p>
[quote]
the decision was hers to make and she would dang sure be the one making it. And she hasn't looked back.
[/quote]
This is so important. Because sometimes they <em>do</em> look back. I give thanks regularly that DS' decisions were his own. Because he is not so enamored of his current school. On balance (at least at this writing), he is content with the good and the bad of it. But had we driven the decision, I would be feeling serious remorse and pain. I feel enough near-guilt that I might have influenced him inadvertently (because it was my top choice), but take comfort in remembering that he rattled off his current school as his top choice as soon as he knew a transfer was in his future, and then chose it in the end from a host of possibles.</p>
<p>So, for those whose kids are in the decision-making mode, realize how important the ownership of the process may come to be.</p>
<p>I couldn't have said it better jmmom.</p>