<p>My plebe's platoon did their Baltimore YP cruise on Monday. She came back saying that she doesn't want to be a SWO. I'm not going to comment to her about that as it is too early in her time at USNA to make a decision like that. She did ask about shore duty/sea duty rotations. I have no idea as I'm in the Air Force. Would any of you smarter swabies care to enlighten me as to the time line of shore and sea duty rotations.
Thanks</p>
<p>In general, the first five years of a SWO's life are spent "at sea", with the first DIVO tour lasting three years and the second lasting between two and three.</p>
<p>The first shore duty follows that, and lasts between two and three years. Assuming they are selected, that would include Department Head School, then back out to sea for another 2-4 years as a Department Head at one or more ships (normally 2). Another 2-3 year shore assignment and, if selected, Executive Officer School, followed by about 2 years as an XO at sea. Another shore rotation, including (if selected) CO school. Back out to sea for 2-3 years as an afloat CO.</p>
<p>These are AVERAGES. Anything can happen. My first DIVO tour was just short of three years, but then I was suddenly pulled off and sent on temporary assignment with the Argentine Navy during the whole Haiti thing back in 1994. My second DIVO tour was cut short when I blew my back out and had to have surgery, and I completed my commitment at a shore-duty station.</p>
<p>Some SWO's earn accelerated progress; others go to special duties such as SEA SHADOW; still others cross over into EDO, etc.</p>
<p>Let her go ahead and decide she doesn't want to be a SWO. She will not be in the minority at USNA. Lord knows, the LAST thing I wanted to be was a SWO. SWO is considered by most Mids to be the bottom of the barrel, with most of them aspiring to more "elite" programs such as Subs, USMC, Aviation, and SEALs. A bad rap, perhaps, but there it is.</p>
<p>But here is the kicker: SHE HAD BETTER STUDY HARD OR SHE MAY END UP BEING A SWO WHETHER SHE LIKES IT OR NOT. That's what happened to me. I DIDN'T STUDY and my grades showed it. Then, three years later, my application to Nuclear Power School was denied. </p>
<p>There is NOTHING that can happen to a Mid during their tenure at USNA (other than being injured or separated) that is worse than watching your classmates select their dream careers while you sit there with no desireable options. She had better HIT THE BOOKS and HIT THEM HARD. That is my ONE great regret in life (moreso, even, than having married my first wife). Don't let her do that to herself.</p>
<p>As for YP cruises simulating a SWO career, there is good and bad. Assuming the YP's are the same as they were when I was there, the living conditions aboard a YP are crap compared to a modern Navy surface vessel. Even my 1960's-era cruiser was nicer. Much more room, for one. Also, the food will be better and cooked by people who actually know how to cook (well, better than your average Mid, anyway). </p>
<p>On the flip side, when you are off watch as a DIVO, you have a slew of other responsibilities that require your attention, and things like sleeping, working out, and watching a movie or reading a book take second place to those and to achieving your OOD, SWO, EOOW, and CDO qualifications. This is no different, however, than life anywhere else in the Navy as an Officer.</p>
<p>BTW, just because you are in an "at sea" billet doesn't mean you are physically at sea the whole time. There is in-port time, both in homeport and abroad, as well as times where the ship may be in drydock for months at a time (that happened to me TWICE, which plays havoc on your qualification schedule). Still, you DO deploy for days, weeks, and months at a stretch from time to time. Such is the nature of the beast.</p>
<p>Hope all that helps...</p>
<p>Z.... can you comment on how much officers "stand watch" if they elect SWO?</p>
<p>My pleasure. :)</p>
<p>Before going anywhere with specifics of underway watches vs. inport watches, let me lay down some definitions so that I don't lose anyone...</p>
<p>Watch rotations on ships are broken down by "Duty Section". A section is a subset of the crew and includes representatives from each department onboard. Crews are normally divided into between 3 and 5 sections, although sometimes 2 sections (port and starboard) are seen, and I've heard stories of as many as 7 (a nearly orgasmic luxury - see below). It is EXTREMELY rare to have more than 4, and the most common structure is 3.</p>
<p>Each duty section has a representative selection from each department: Engineering, Weapons, Operations, Supply, Officers, etc. The sections take turns manning the watches, which differ depending on if the ship is inport or underway.</p>
<p>When ship's work is knocked off (finished for the day) while inport, everyone goes on liberty except for the assigned duty section, which remains aboard overnight. It is their job to man the ship, handle emergencies, etc. The following morning, the next duty section takes over and the prior section gets to go on liberty at the end of the day. The duty section has certain standard watches such as OOD Inport, POOW, Messenger, Duty Engineer, etc.</p>
<p>While underway, the entire ship's crew is present, but the jist of the rotation remains the same. There are a given number of watches, and they rotate every 4 to 6 hours. How often you stand watch depends on how many sections there are, which in turn depends on how many people are qualified for a given watch.</p>
<p>Some examples:</p>
<p>A 5-section inport watch rotation means that the average crewmember will be required to remain onboard in a duty capacity not less than once every five days. However, if your particular function (Command Duty Officer - CDO, for example) has only three qualified individuals aboard, then those three will be standing watch every three days. If you are unfortunate enough to have only two qualified people, then you are on Port and Starboard watches, which means every other day. That REALLY sucks. 3-section is the minimum desired, and even then it guarantees that you never get a full weekend off (you either have duty on Friday night, or all day Saturday, or all day Sunday).</p>
<p>While underway, each department comes up with their own watch rotation, so while OOD Underway may be on 4-section, the guys down in Radio may be on Port and Starboard while the EOOW (Engineering Officer of the Watch) may be on 3. Normally, everyone is on 3.</p>
<p>So what does this mean while underway?</p>
<p>Watches aboard ship while underway are broken down as follows:</p>
<p>Midwatch: 0000-0400
Rev (Reveille) Watch: 0400-0800
Forenoon Watch: 0800-1200
Afternoon Watch: 1200-1600
First Dogwatch: 1600-1800
Second Dogwatch: 1800-2000
Night Watch: 2000-2400</p>
<p>The Dog Watches are shortened to allow watchstanders to catch evening meal.</p>
<p>For some reason my first ship's Rev watch went from 0400 to 0900, earning it the dubious title of "The Morning Marathon". It REALLY sucked! Inport watches run the same times, it's just that the watches themselves are different: the OOD is Inport vs. Underway (two totally different qualifications), etc.</p>
<p>So, on average, if you are in a 3-section rotation, you will be on for about 4 hours and off for about 8. If you are on a 4-section rotation, you are 4 on and 12 off. Port-and-starboard watches are almost always 6 and 6, but 8-and-8 and 12-and-12 are also possible. While inport, a 3-section rotation means you are on one day and off two. Seven sections means you are on one and off six (hence the orgasm mentioned above).</p>
<p>No one ever said life in the military was easy. In many ways, life in the Navy is the toughest, even if we DO have air conditioning and hot meals aboard!</p>
<p>BTW, here is an excellent article that is chock full of truths. He writes better than I do: <a href="http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Edwards_121404,00.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Edwards_121404,00.html</a></p>
<p>Hope that helps...</p>
<p>ETA: I should stress that this is STRICTLY for SWO. I am unaware of how pilots structure their watch rotations (or if they even stand watches to begin with), nor am I aware of other communities such as USMC, SEAL, etc. I could speculate, but I don't get paid to do that unless ordered to.</p>
<p>BTW, I'm not sure why the watch time windows described by the guy in the article are so different. Perhaps his ship had a skewd schedule, or else it was due to operational necessity. Either way, the points he makes about sleep are spot-on.</p>
<p>Also, it is not unheard of (and he is an example) to see Chief Petty Officers assigned as Conning Officers (JOOD - Junior Officer of the Deck) while underway. My ship had them, too. It's great because, again, the more qualified watchstanders, the more sections, and the more time off between watches. It's also great career-advancement material for a Chief.</p>
<p>Zaphod - Thanks for the info, it helps. I will pass on your advice to her. I jsut want her to keep all of her options open.</p>
<p>You need to tell her to stop worrying about what she's going to to AFTER she graduates and concentrate ON GRADUATING. If she doesn't, she may very well fall into the same damned trap that I did.</p>
<p>She needs to study, study, STUDY. She needs to get the absolute best OOM she can manage so that when the time comes she can kick back and enjoy the freedom that comes with having plenty of juicy options to choose from. She will have all the time in the world over the next 2.5 years to determine what she wants to pick when the time comes, but she has to have the OPPORTUNITIES open, not just the DESIRES.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to keep banging on the same old drum, but here I am, 17 YEARS after getting the "We regret..." letter from Nuclear Power School, and I STILL ache from it because it was MY OWN STUPID FAULT. I would spare your daughter and every other Mid a similar experience if I could, but all I can do in that regard is to sound the warning over and over and OVER again, so I do. </p>
<p>If I sound like a broken record in the process, then so be it. I don't do this to be popular, just to help.</p>
<p>Z- thanks for that wealth of information!</p>
<p>So in terms of "service selection"....
if a Mid selects SWO, (and is, in turn, selected for the SWO community)
am I correct in understanding they have an opportunity (based on OOM) to select a ship and home port during service selection?<br>
If so, what type of information is available about a particular ship.... for example, is the number of "watch" section rotations posted, or the schedule for the ship (ie: upcoming tour), and is there further information about what type of positions (???jobs- not sure of the correct "duty" term).... are available on a given ship that would be open to USNA graduates that should be taken into consideration when choosing a ship/port? What might one want to factor in making one particular selection over another (other than availablity at the time they pull the billet off the board).....</p>
<p>I guess where I am coming from is trying to see how the YP experience parallels the real deal.... what a Mid would find different/the same between the 2 experiences.... </p>
<p>(hope this is making sense)....</p>
<p>
[quote]
if a Mid selects SWO, (and is, in turn, selected for the SWO community)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Those are one and the same. SWO does not so much "select" people as collect those who choose it and those who are left with nowhere else to go. I know it's like that for men, but I am unsure of what options women may have if their OOM isn't that great.</p>
<p>
[quote]
am I correct in understanding they have an opportunity (based on OOM) to select a ship and home port during service selection?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Correct.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If so, what type of information is available about a particular ship.... for example, is the number of "watch" section rotations posted, or the schedule for the ship (ie: upcoming tour), and is there further information about what type of positions (???jobs- not sure of the correct "duty" term).... are available on a given ship that would be open to USNA graduates that should be taken into consideration when choosing a ship/port?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>None of that is available.</p>
<p>When a Mid walks up to the SWO board, he is faced with a selection of ships, each of which is based in a homeport. In turn, each combination has a SWOS date associated with it (or they used to, anyway). The Mid can choose a ship based upon homeport (I wanted Mayport, FL, and got it, the ONE THING that went right for me that night), ship class (some guys desperately want to serve on a Destroyer, while others want a Carrier), SWOS start date, or a combination of all three. When I got to the board, only the older USS DALE was available in Mayport, as all the TICONDEROGA-class billets were taken, and I REALLY didn't want to serve on a missile sponge, er.... FFG, so the selection was "easy", but not ideal.</p>
<p>Now, you have to remember that just because a Mid picks USS LOLLIPOP on Service Selection Night doesn't mean he'll be reporting aboard the day after he graduates USNA. First there is graduation leave, then there is SWO school, then there is another school (I took Communications Officer Afloat, but there are others like EOOW, DCA, etc.), and THEN you report to your ship. You also have to remember that you may not get a quick SWOS billet right after your leave, so you may have to cool your heels on a TAD assignment somewhere. Those ensigns you saw partly running I-Day this year were examples of this.</p>
<p>So, all told, between the time you graduate and the time you first report to your ship, not less than six months will have gone by, and perhaps as many as eight or nine. Therefore, a potential cruise schedule is nearly impossible to predict, and always open to the vageries of world events anyway.</p>
<p>As for watch rotations and such, the near-standard is a three-section watch. If you land someplace with more, then you're lucky. If less, then you're not. You just gotta deal with what you get. Your CO, XO, and DH may all be candidates for the "Coolest Guy In The Universe" award, or they may end up being higher on your "I Wish I Could Kill The Bastard" list than Osama Bin Laden. Again, you deal with what you get. (My first XO and DH were both utter jerks and, sadly, also USNA alumni.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
What might one want to factor in making one particular selection over another (other than availablity at the time they pull the billet off the board).....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Homeport, ship type, and SWOS date (assuming that is still listed on the board). As far as SWO goes, that's pretty much the size of it. Some may argue that billet is important, but in many cases a billet is not available and in most cases it's meaningless anyway. I went to Communications Officer Afloat school, and my orders said to report as COMMO, and I ended up being the Electronic Warfare Officer. Needs of the Service, you see...</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess where I am coming from is trying to see how the YP experience parallels the real deal.... what a Mid would find different/the same between the 2 experiences....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Same? A watch rotation (but not a realistic one, if they do the same thing we did in my day), getting seasick, plotting MOBOARDS, piloting, communicating via radio and flags, performing maneuvers.</p>
<p>Different? Quality of life (YP's are worse, IMO), level of responsibility, it's no longer a gamne when you're out in the Fleet, people can really die, you have TONS more you need to learn and do.</p>
<p>Oh, yeah..... YP's and regular surface ships are also painted the same Haze Grey. ;)</p>
<p>thanks Z....as always, brilliant! </p>
<p>will "print, save and mail".....</p>
<p>(the save part is for when you are ready to write your book..... you almost have enough to get it published..... ;) )</p>
<p>Thank you for your amazing information you always share Z! I am going to print this and send it to Miss Lola .. I know she must be missing reading CC.. HA!</p>
<p>But I have question.. what are the options for women besides SWO? I know some are men only like Seals and Subs so thought I would ask. THANKS AGAIN!</p>
<p>My experience has been that CDOs (an in-port watch) make out slightly better than the regular watch sections, at least on the larger ships. CDOs, normally LCDRs and Senor LTs, normally department heads, can sometimes get up in the one in ten range while the normal watch secions are in one and three.</p>
<p>Airdales, when on board and in port, normally stand the same watch rotation as the ship. Underway, there is normally a squadron duty officer who will be in the ready room during flight ops and during the day. They normally secure to their stateroom between taps and reville. Normal airdale routine: eat, sleep, fly; eat, sleep, fly; movie; eat, sleep, fly; repeat. Aviators will have division officer and department head responsibilities and some, such as the Safety Officer, will, if not flying, during flight ops, usually be on the flight deck. The squadron will normally also have a LSO (Landing Signals Officer) on the platform and a pilot on watch in Pri Fly to assist the Air Boss in aircraft specific emergencies, etc. during flight ops. During some alert conditions, when not at flight ops, there will be a duty crew, which can be at various stages of alert between being in the aircraft ready to launch to just being identified and have the aircraft preflighted and ready to go. Bottom line, watches for airdales at sea are not a big deal.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I have question.. what are the options for women besides SWO?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're really making me stretch, here! ;)</p>
<p>I am going strictly from memory, and I should stress that I no longer have any idea what the selection criteria are for women in terms of which of the following options are more selective than others, but here goes:</p>
<p>USN Aviation (Pilot and NFO)
USMC Aviation (Pilot and NFO)
USN SWO
USMC (I have no idea how or what women get to select within the USMC. You'll have to ask someone who is better versed. However, women CAN choose USMC non-aviation.)
USN Supply Corps
USN Oceanography
USN Naval Intelligence
USN Civil Engineering Corps</p>
<p>These are the ones that were available in my day, as well as SWO, which has been added since. I don't know of any others for sure and I'd rather not speculate on this answer. I'm going to snoop around and see if I can find anything more definitive.</p>
<p>ETA: Here is a link to the USNA Catalog: <a href="http://www.usna.edu/Catalog/2005-2006careeropsbb.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.usna.edu/Catalog/2005-2006careeropsbb.pdf</a></p>
<p>Specifically, this is the section discussing career opportunities for graduates, and specifically addresses women. Hope it helps.</p>
<p>I think Supply Corps, Oceanography, Naval Intelligence, and Civil Engineering are only available, maybe with a few special exceptions, to those who are NPQ for lunrestricted line.</p>
<p>You're right! It says so right there in the link I posted. Wow. Things have changed in that regard! :eek:</p>
<p>Also, it states that everything in USMC is available except for infantry, artillery, and armor, so that's that for USMC.</p>
<p>For the record, if I'm not mistaken, these days SWOS occurrs after the JO's first command tour, not directly after graduation as in the past.</p>
<p>HUH? :confused:</p>
<p>Well, it's been a while, so I'll check to verify if I'm wrong. Let me crank up a contact or two I know and get back to you with the answer.</p>
<p>ETA: </p>
<p>Well, I'll be damned! Looks like Fiterace was right! :eek:</p>
<p>I just got off the phone with SWOS in Newport, RI, and they confirmed for me that nowadays, JO's report to their ships and, upon achieving their OOD qualification, report to SWOS. Both are required for qualification as a SWO.</p>
<p>To be frank, it still makes no sense to me, but I am quite certain that if they have made this radical a change, then the SWOS curriculum must also be radically different. Such is life; the only constant is change and taxes.</p>
<p>Since this is the case, then the possibility of a ship's deployment schedule being a factor in Service Selection increases, but a) deployment schedules aren't really published, and b) they change all the time anyway, so I still believe they would be a poor choice of a factor in choosing.</p>
<p>Since this has changed, I am going to leave open the possibility that the other schools (EOOW, DCA, etc.) have also changed. Let me get on the horn with some other contacts and get the latest scoop.</p>
<p>Will advise, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks, Fiterace, for the correction.</p>
<p>Well, here are the answers....</p>
<p>DPort is a current-serving SWO, so he knows of which he speaks.</p>
<p>WARNING: The place where I have linked can get a bit out of hand, so be careful. ;)</p>
<p>I didn't want to copy the whole thing, so please bear with me.</p>
<p>First...there are two milestones in "service selection"</p>
<p>1) Service Selection Day/Night (however you want to look at it): is when 1/C find out what service they have been choosen for (SWO, Pilot, NFO, USMC, etc.) this is usually around Thanksgiving time.</p>
<p>2) Service (Orders) Assignment Night: is when 1/C meet with their communities...for SWO, it means picking your ship...for USN pilots it means picking your flight school date...not sure if you pick a TBS date for USMC or if they assign it to you. This date is in February. </p>
<p>For SWO on Service Assignment Night, the ship tage reads: DESIGNATION, SHIP NAME, HOMEPORT...that's it! As far as I know, no more SWOS. You go right to the ship after basket leave.</p>
<p>From what I have heard, billet assignment on ship is on the "needs of the ship" and not on individual preference, though I assume it could workout if there are a few open billets and a few personnel.</p>
<p>Zaph, I am pretty sure that my leadership prof. (LT) said that an E-6 qualified as OOD (whether that is in port or not, I can't recall). On my cruise the conning-o was a chief for a rotation! I think LT also said that they were on a 9 duty section rotation (in port) because the captain said to the khakis that if they could get everyone qualified, the watch sections would increase....and they did.</p>
<p>As things vary from company to company at USNA, it is true in the fleet!</p>
<p>There is probably some overgeneralization going on here. Cold iron in Norfolk requires a lot smaller duty station than achored out in Naples. If I remember correctly, and it is probably still true, when we chopped to our operational commanders either in the Med or West Pac, we were required to be on no greater than three section in port duty. If there is a chance that the duty section is going to have to get the ship underway, I highly doubt a nine section duty.</p>