This used to be a magnificent university. On paper, in pictures, and in person, it is beautiful. But don’t let the iconic Touchdown Jesus, Golden Dome, or football stadium fool you. For the past decade, administration has grown increasingly corrupt. This past school year has been filled with administration’s ignorant decisions of blatant disregard for its students. Everything they do now is a PR stunt. The truth is that administration cares about two things—its public reputation and its checkbook. Everything else is secondary.
Most recently, they broke apart my dorm community, Zahm. They literally made us chose AT MOST 3 of our friends to live with next year. Imagine that for a second. The school that you sacrificed and worked your tail off in high school to apply to does this to you. This is not the Notre Dame I applied to…or at least not the one I thought I applied to. Their reasoning for this decision? Well they didn’t really give us any—because they knew that no reason would come remotely close to sufficient for declaring war on the friendships of an entire community. I encourage you to read in the Observer about this decision, which has been made public. Even more disappointing is that administration will not even sit down with us to talk. That sends one message to the student body: they don’t want the truth to come out. That’s because the truth is unpleasant and ugly, and it would only make administration look worse than it already does.
I would discourage anyone from coming to this place for any reason. It looks good on paper and perhaps in person, but the truth is that this university is only Catholic in name. They do not care about their students; they know how disposable and replaceable we are, with a large number of transfer applicants every year. If you are considering coming here, don’t do it. The students and professors are truly incredible people, but administration, disguised by the facade of intensive virtue-signaling, will proactively make your life hell.
My alum sister told me it had become too much of a frat atmosphere and the school is renovating the dorm to reform the atmosphere.
Administration never made a remote effort to understand our community. They never talked with us. The truth is that it is the most accepting community at ND—something that other dorms truly struggle with. I know every one of the 170+ guys in my dorm.
There was no due process, no warning, and no effort made by administration to keep us together. They just broke us apart and sent us in different directions. And there is nothing to hold them accountable. Administration CAN get away with everything they want to. They have in the past, and they will continue to do so.
There is some truth here, if current and past students are to be believed. I am parent to 3 ND grads and 1 current student. My kids are all very unhappy with the way the University handled this. Don’t get me wrong, they have said this is the Animal House dorm, but things the university consistently sweeps under the rug i.e sexual assaults and worse, the things that ResLife is pointing to as reasons for their decision pale in comparison and come off to those who are their students as pretty hypocritical. They feel disillusioned to an extent with the school they love, a consequence of the growing up process I suppose. I love ND but I have been disappointed as well.
Here’s my beef with the Zahm Hall decision. Zahm is not a fraternity with a registered charter at Notre Dame. It is a community where students are randomly assigned by the school. These students did not choose Zahm. Zahm chose them.
If there was a problem with the atmosphere at Zahm, the school had an obligation to address those infractions as they arose. Apparently that didn’t happen, and now they have torn apart the entire community in the middle of a pandemic. It’s heartless and cruel, and on top of that, they gave the students exactly one week to find a new place to live. My heart goes out to the young men who live there.
The residential community/dorms are the heart and soul of Notre Dame. If Notre Dame is willing to tear apart a community in the manner they did, it leaves serious doubts about what else they would be willing to do. It has us seriously considering removing Notre Dame from our D22"s list.
Thank you for posting here, and I want to let you know that the residents of Zahm Hall have the support of so many of us around the country. For what it is worth, the Zahm Hall situation (as well as the general handling of COVID) has given us great pause about Notre Dame.
As you said, the students and teachers are amazing. Notre Dame is truly a special place, but the administration has greatly diminished the Notre Dame experience in recent years.
It’s solely an issue of perception.
The US, the college selection process, and the college ranking system process have irrevocably changed over the last 5 years, with much of the change manifesting in the last year.
ND’s mission, as with its peers’, is to strengthen its image consistent with the image as mandated by today’s overpowering corporate and political incestuous machine.
ND’s greatest intangible assets involve character, spirituality, and community.
Part of the community’s strength, cohesiveness, and tradition is reflected in the uniqueness of ND’s dormitory system and strict adherent dormitory policies. In other words, the dormitory system and its policies have yielded a highly regarded and valuable intangible asset.
It’s ND position that any component of such asset which has the effect of undermining the value of that specific asset - an asset which has been cultivated for well over a century - must be critically examined with appropriate redress. If not, ND’s goodwill (its principal asset) may be adversely affected.
Now this begs the question as to whether deep-sixing a sub-brand (Zahm) and displacing its inhabitants was appropriate.
Well, considering the aforementioned ND goals, the issue is whether a historical pattern of inappropriate conduct (one too many bun runs) has created a stigma (a perception) which devalues the very important intangible associated with ND’s unique dormitory structure to such a degree whereby such diminution in value negatively impacts ND’s ability to recruit certain candidates, the college selection process, and ND’s academic ranking (the latter of which is highly subjective based upon the new dynamics attendant with college admissions - the new world in which we live).
To critically assess the fairness and accuracy of your statement (that ND acted inappropriately) you have to be willing to scrutinize the University’s elevation of new criteria (holistic attributes) and the de-emphasis of traditional objective measurable characteristics in the admissions process, the effect of which is to expand certain candidate spots (holistic) at the expense of objectively determined admission spots. Pointedly, ND’s chances of admitting students who otherwise would not be admitted through a more objective criteria-based admissions process would likely be weakened, which correlates into a weaker position in the academic ranking process and the changing nature of how ND views itself relative thereto.
So the principal issue ND faced in the decision to relegate Zahm to the history books is purely a business decision, and business decisions have as much to do with perception as with reality, as the former affects intangible value as much as the latter - they’re effectively indistinguishable. No different than firing an ND football coach with a serial losing record, irrespective as to the reasons for such record.
Perception is reality in business, and Notre Dame is a business. To think otherwise would be a mistake.
How does the Administration undue/reverse 40 years of bun runs, etc., in the face of the new highly politicized environment, one that will crush ND in the academic rankings if females and other minorities continually raise the aged-old issue of Zahm’s frat boy image? That image is locked in stone, and is not an image consistent with the highly charged political environment of now and onward.
What highly prestigious university needs that headache, especially when there is no cure?/!
To be fair to you, if you have an issue with the ever changing demographic complexion of each successive entering class which rightly or wrongly takes away spots from the middle class non-legacy kid (who knocks it out of the park in terms of grades, standardized test scores, ECs, etc., but who now has very little to no chance of being admitted), and/or if you have a problem with the Administration caving on the Chris C murals that once adorned the entrance of the Main Administration Building, and/or you have a problem with a pro-choice liberal president speaking at ND (could go on and on), then your position about killing Zahm is cogent and consistent; meaning, you’re basing your position on fairness principles that are separate and apart from
business decisions.
However, none of the above is relevant with ND’s intangible value in terms of its character and how the University is viewed in the new, highly charged political environment, which the college ranking system is wholly beholden (and thus is ND)
It is very difficult to change perception, other than to abandon the asset that has resulted in a diminution in value to the overall business when viewed in the eyes of an ever-changing purchaser.
ND didn’t make the wrong business decision.
I actually think the Zahm Hall situation dilutes the brand. As you said, character, spirituality, and community are the key intangibles for ND. The mishandling of the Zahm situation eviscerated all three traits, and it emphasized a cruel and heartless attitude toward the students. The type of student ND tries to attract will be turned off by that, and that hurts its image. I would argue shutting down, rather than eradicating the objectionable behavior from, Zahm was a poor business decision.
Aside from Zahm, the fact that ND set up a snitch line where you can anonymously turn in rule breakers during COVID is another point against its three core values. Ask current students what that has done to the community. When businesses start to change, it takes a while for the customers to react. While these changes in core values have been in the works for years, they are just now being brought to the surface in very ugly ways.
The fact that such a line was necessary says something about the character of the students as well.
“I would argue shutting down, rather than eradicating the objectionable behavior from, Zahm was a poor business decision.”
Why? Sounds like the dorm is a liability both legally and from a PR perspective.
That type of objectionable behavior didn’t happen overnight. I find it ironic that when kids get called out or disciplined for behavior they know is problematic it’s the fault of the discipliner rather than the disciplinee. Can the kids that live in Zahm honestly say their behavior was not an issue?
Personally I find this situation indistinguishable from a fraternity that gets disbanded.
Case in point my friend’s S is in a fraternity at UTenn and the school threw them out of the fraternity house last week. Evicted them and suspended the fraternity. They had 2 days to find a roommate and sign up for a dorm room. They’re all upset as are the parents. But they can’t claim they didn’t know the issues.
Sounds like the same can be said if this situation. Just because the kids in the dorm are fine with their behavior doesn’t mean the rest of the school agrees, nor does the administration owe some sort of due process …although I’d hazard a guess there’s been discussions in the past about the dorm cleaning up it’s act…if it has a rep as the “Animal House” dorm…that rep didn’t get earned this year.
My D is looking at transferring to ND and this makes me more rather than less supportive of her interest.
The administration “cure” appears more draconian than the disease here. It approaches a Soviet style re-education camp philosophy. As the story goes, back then if the Soviets suspected that there as a spy in a department of 10 people, they would simply eliminate all 10 figuring they got the spy. I didn’t matter that 9 were innocent. Surely there was a better way to handle this issue. I doubt that ND administration would admit they made a mistake but certainly self reflection by them is in order here over a poorly managed decision.
It’s night and day when compared to a fraternity. In a fraternity, students pick a fraternity that they want to join, and then they pledge. Each fraternity picks it’s own values, and as a result, it attracts people with those values. In the case of dorms at ND, the students are ASSIGNED their dorm. The men who end up in Zahm have no control over that. If there are continuous discipline problems, ND needs to look at why their EMPLOYEES (the rectors and RAs are paid by the university) can’t get it under control. Every other dorm at ND seems to be able to do just fine. It’s far more likely that ND allowed these issues to go unchecked for years, and rather than looking at their role in the problem they created, they took it out on the men currently living there.
I would further assert that if you think dorms at ND are like fraternities then you don’t really understand the residence hall structure. The dorms are not de facto fraternities and sororities.
But if you do view Zahm as a fraternity, why weren’t they put on probation and told what corrective actions needed to be taken? This is a huge CYA move by the university. They allowed this behavior for years, and now they want to take the “moral” high ground. No one is fooled.
Do you have any association with the university, either as an alum or as a parent of a current or recent student?
You seem to be unaware of how the anonymous snitch line is being used. There is no due process once a report is filed. Someone breaks up with you and you want revenge? You call the snitch line because you know it makes your ex’s life hell. You have a fight with your roommate? You call the snitch line. This is destroying the very fiber of the ND community - its residence halls.
Considering that the President of Notre Dame attended a White House reception under the former administration without a mask and contracted COVID there, the administration has lost the moral high ground.
I’m a parent of a prospective student and your recitation of how students are behaving and treating each other is definitely an eye opener.
However, you are hardly the first student to come on this website to complain about some facet of their current school.
I’ve read a few articles about this situation and like most there are 2 sides. You’re entitled to your opinion, perspective and feelings but that doesn’t mean there isn’t another side with another set of the same.
I’m curious what your solutions would be to fix the behavior issues at Zahm or address Covid protocol violations?
This has nothing to do with a snitch line.
Has everything to do with the “perception” of Zahm, not from within, but from without.
Do the bun runs still exist? If so, how many times has the University frowned upon such activities? How many times has Zahm been punished for such activities?
Does Zahm have a reputation (deserved or not) that is inconsistent with ND’s brand and perception in the marketplace?
More specifically, does Zahm detract from ND’s ever-changing brand, meaning does Zahm hurt ND’s image in the marketplace given the anything-but-glacial changes in the corporate and political culture in this country?
One poster just excoriated ND’s President for not wearing a mask at a political event, as if wearing a mask comports with objective science. Seriously? And that’s my point. ND is simply complying with the incendiary political coercive pressures that are real and meaningful. It’s simply a balancing of interests where ND’s brand is paramount.
Let me know if the bun run still exists.
It was there in my day and, frankly, I don’t want my daughter exposed to such nonsense. She’ll be enrolling and on campus in August.
I would have sent her to UF, UVA, UM, or UCLA to observe and consume such behavior.
Bottom line, continuing to countenance or sanction such a “frat boy” image is inconsistent with ND’s mission and brand.
Folks can choose another institution if they believe such behavior is appropriate and prefer to be associated with such an image.
I actually think the snitch line is very related. It shows how the administration views and treats the students. Between the snitch line and the handling of Zahm, both of which go after the tightknit community, I find the pattern troubling.
I do, however, very much appreciate your insight as a former student. You and I both know how important residential life is to ND. In fact, it was/is the main draw for my D22. I think we are both in agreement that the residence halls are integral to the full Notre Dame experience.
As you can see from this thread, this action makes ND more appealing to people who view ND’s dorms as fraternities and sororities. If ND continues down this road, they aren’t going to continue to attract the same types of students. As you allude to, I don’t want ND to become a UF, UCLA, UVA, or Michigan!
Serious question, how many people outside of ND actually know what Zahm Hall is?
I doubt anyone outside the school family knows what it is. But that kind of underscores the importance of residential life to the whole ND experience. It is integral to the whole Home vibe that touches everything they do there, in the best way possible IMO. It was a huge draw for our kids.
The bun run has happened during the last 5 or 6 years but not sure it has more recently.
I agree that ND is looking to protect its image in alot of things that have been happening there lately. Its a business like any other on a certain level.
Well said. I am one to always follow the money. I wonder if it was a liability situation or undisclosed settlement OT something that may have happened. Unfortunately it’s usually about the money.
Oh, I don’t know. Can’t imagine a lot, however the University is in the business of managing reputational risk and, more importantly, molding its brand consistent with its competitors.
Look, if I were a parent of a Zahm student I’d be livid - out of my mind angry. And the beef would be justified due to the timing. It’s a huge disruption to a student’s life.
I mean, to move the Sorin kids into Zahm and to kick the Zahm kids out in the middle of a semester suggests there may be issues with the Sorin Hall renovation schedule, assuming the renovations are to be completed by the start of school year in August. Covid has without question disrupted supply chains. Obviously I have no idea, but the timing is very peculiar.
Also, there’s no “follow the money” issues here re: orphaning the Zahm students. Liability doesn’t attach to a specific asset nor does the aggrieved (assuming there is an aggrieved) have the ability to strong-arm a university and make such a demand. The real world of litigation doesn’t work that way, especially with 501©(3) organizations.
Again, not to be a broken record, however this decision has been made to protect the University’s modified image, an image which has been and continues to be shaped by outside forces.
Bottom line, the University’s ranking has slipped this last year and the University will go to the greatest lengths not to fall outside the top 20.
It’s all about the rankings. Only a fool would believe otherwise.
The country has changed and ND “must” change as well.
I believe Don Bishop recently stated that the incoming class approximates 50 students of color/international, which is noble and wonderful (he may have said 40 percent; can’t remember).
Jump back to only 5 years ago and students in the majority represented approximately 70 percent. That’s an incomprehensible change in 60 months.
With the legacy representation continuing to hug that 20 percent mark, if you’re a kid in the majority who is not a legacy, man, that’s called a lottery pick. A moon shot. Just do the math.
I suspect that in 10 years ND will come close to mirroring Stanford’s and other top private university’s demographic percentages, with this year’s classes coming in at about 75 percent people of color and international students.
Gets real, real, real tough when that 25 percent is substantially eaten up by legacies. Do the math.
ND may never get there due to the Catholic peg or target, however, as Don Bishop has said, every year ND must keep up with its competition, and that requires ND to substantially increase the number of students who do not represent the so-called majority in this country.
I just don’t know what the kids who are not legacies but come from the so-called majority are going to do?
They’re not getting in ND, that I do know. Not with perfect grades, not with perfect test scores, not with stellar ECs, etc. Just not going to happen.
Again, just do the math.
Coming full circle, did the Zahm hall reputation (benign or not, true or false) raise the issue of white privilege with the Administration and outside the University whereby such characterization is wholly at odds with Don Bishop’s and ND’s new branding of the University?
The answer seems obvious.
Again, Zahm’s image, whether or not known to the outside world and whether or not such image is accurate, is incongruent and does not comport well with ND’s ever evolving image.
I think it’s that simple.
So you are saying if you are Republican there is something wrong with you? I think you should leave politics of that nature out of the discussion.