Berkeley Haas GMP vs. Williams College (Econ + History)

College Search & Selection
1

Hello everyone! I hope you are doing well :slight_smile: I’m sorry to bother you all, but I’m a recent admit to Berkeley GMP, but I’m still split between Berkeley and Williams College in Massachusetts. I would really love your input, and I’m going to list some pros/cons below very briefly. Thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful day. I would appreciate any feedback and opinions. It would greatly ease my stress.

A little about me: low-income, first-Gen, wants to enter into non-profit business or public service/marketing

Williams

Pros:

  1. Small class sizes (7:1 student-teacher ratio) that is so rare and valuable. You really get to know your professor well, and office hours would be accessible/ well-used, get to know people on first-name basis)
  2. Financial aid (one of the best financial aid programs in the country- covered textbooks, storage, funding for concerts/trips,flights). As a low-income student, I got nearly a full-ride ~ 1k
  3. Freshman Pre-Orientation and Entry System (really helps guide freshmen, has separate orientation for first-Gen students, and with an entry group and JA (basically RA) that hosts events to bond))
  4. High grad school placement rates
  5. Oxford style tutorial options (1 professor- 2 student class options that focus on niche subject)
  6. Winter Study: a month where students can go to school-sponsored internships, learn classes on pass/fail, and just learn for the sake of learning (there’s also really cool travel classes where students have traveled to for example, Greece for a classics course that the school covers for students with financial aid)
  7. Housing: On- campus housing guaranteed for all 4 years (about 60% of freshman have singles)

Cons

  1. Rural: It is located is a very rural area in Massachusetts! To get to big cities like NY and Boston, it would take 1-2 hours by public transit or shuttle. Can feel a little restrictive, especially in turns of internship access and bigger city feel (which I’m used to since I live in a bigger city). The surrounding town is very small and quaint, but there’s no big chains like Target in the immediate vicinity.
  2. Weather: I’m from California :sweat_smile: There’s a lot of cold weather and snow, and I heard the weather can be harsh in the winter.
  3. Lack of name-brand recognition: My goal is to remain in the west coast post-grad and settle my career in California (Bay Area). Berkeley is a much more recognizable name in the Bay Area, especially for business.
  4. Study abroad opportunities: There’s still some great options, but it is definitely more limited compared to the UC’s extensive list.

Berkeley

Pros:

  1. GMP
  • Admission into a great program with a global focus which I love (direct entry into Haas)! Small cohort, get to know everyone, and lots of support from “big” and mentors from past cohorts
  1. Direct entry into Haas -Less stress about applying and getting into Haas while in Berkeley so less competitive, one of the best business schools, great job placement
  2. Larger selection of courses
  • I’m planning to double major or minor in history while at Berkeley. When looking at the course catalog, there’s a wider range of courses available.
  1. Access to SF + urban city
  • proximity to internships, San Francisco for things to do, lots of diverse food options around
  1. Close to home
  • About a one hour commute from home, easy to visit friends and family (really important as I’m a big family person), less likely to deal with homesickness (compared to moving to an entirely different state), people from my hs are going to Berk pro and con
  1. Big AAPI community on campus
  • Compared to Williams as a PWI, Berkeley has a bigger AAPI community and more robust affinity groups (especially for VSA)

Cons

  1. More $ than Williams
  • Less supportive financial aid, ~7k, no stipend for GMP abroad to London, have to pay for groceries and social expenses abroad out-of-pocket, low- income student
  1. At first, longer adjustment period
  • First, I have to take summer classes at Berk, adjust to London during freshman fall semester, come back to Berk spring semester where everyone has already made friends on-campus and went through orientation
  1. Class Sizes
  • Much bigger, less personal class sizes, up to 2,000 students, less of a relationship with prof, office hours will be crowded, problems with registration
  1. Competitive (less inclusive club culture)
  • I heard some clubs require rounds of interviews, resumes, essays to get in?, lower acceptance rate than the school itself

5.Greek life and partying

  • Don’t mind the occasional party, not a big partier, prefer kicking back with friends, don’t plan to rush, worried about not fitting in socially

Thank you so much for reading! I appreciate any comments truly. Have a great day :slight_smile:

2

You are looking at two different colleges (large public v LAC), two different locations, and two different courses of study. Both are excellent. Two reasonable people could make different choices assuming they are both comfortably affordable (no hardship, no debt).

I recommend you revisit both if possible and look carefully at the atmosphere at the colleges and the coursework you would take with both options.

Congrats on the acceptances. But IMO only you should make the decision.

2 Likes
3

Williams will be known to the people who hire, even in California. :slight_smile:

Take the amazing educational experience and financial aid that covers travel, books, etc., immediate integration into the community (v. the Berk/London/Berk back&forth), without a thought as to whether the college is well-known. Anyone who is in a position to find interns or hire will know and will be impressed.

No stipend for GMP abroad in London would make it a no-go for me. Life in London is insanely expensive (count $400/month for transportation alone, keeping in mind I’m using the 18+ student cap at $10 for zones 1-3 to calculate this but in reality it’s more if you convert £ to $ properly, and if you’re in a 1-5 zone it’s more too… everything is just SO expensive in London. Then add groceries and things most will be doing that you won’t want to keep yourself away from, like pub night or pizza…)

In contrast, Williams will cover costs for your first internship, for study abroad, for research conference travel costs.
Housing is guaranteed AND covered (housing in SF/Oakland is going to be hellish to find and pay for).
Not only will Berkeley cost you 7K extra but all of this ^will add to the costs and that extra amount added to the 7K may keep you from going abroad, going to that conference, etc.

That would be a really, really big obstacle for me.

In addition to the financial safety that Williams guarantees you, the education there will be very personalized and interactive, and it sounds like you’re looking forward to that; you’ll not only be surrounded by brilliant professors but also by peers who’ll push you to think and refine those thoughts.
Williams 's got a vigorous, well-funded first-gen program. It’ll make sure you succeed because it’s got the resources to and admitted you because they know you can succeed and want you to succeed.
Finally, I 100% promise you will not lack in options for entertainment (they have the money to make sure of that.)

I can understand however your hesitancy wrt to being cold in Winter (it IS cold) and there will definitely be a smaller AAPI community there.
For these reasons, if they havent contacted you about it, contact your admission rep and ask whether they may be willing to fly you to Williams so you can see the campus, attend a class, meet with current AAPI students. See for yourself.
If it feels really uncomfortable to the tune you’re willing to spend about 10K to avoid it, then choose GMT.
I’m rather confident that by visiting you’ll see they didn’t make a mistake when they thought you’d be a great fit for their campus community.

(Ps: I’m not a Williams graduate but boosting it here specifically because the other choice, while prestigious, doesn’t seem to be a good academic and financial fit for this student.)

7 Likes
4

UCB common data sets suggest that <10% of undergraduates join fraternities and sororities, an apparent downward trend over the years / decades. However, a small percentage can still fill a lot of fraternity and sorority houses (and many of the houses existed from a time when participation was greater, like 10-15% or so).

Williams prohibits students from joining fraternities or sororities. However, the absence of fraternities and sororities does not stop students from drinking alcohol, sometimes in risky ways, as noted in Student concerns about drink tampering lead College to limit dorm card access to residents only – The Williams Record . Indeed, being in the northeast, small, residential, and rural may be associated with higher rates of college drinking.

1 Like
5

Williams is not 1-2 hours from Boston or NY - about 3. But less than an hour to Albany, NY.

33K undergrads + grads vs. 2k students.

As for name recognition - Williams trumps Berkeley. People may no Cal and it’s considered a great state school - but Williams is elite - and levels (multiple) above Cal in perception. Frankly, you needn’t go to a prominent school today to get pretty much anywhere - with indeed and Linkedin - but Williams will allow you to do most anything and to be anywhere.

Study abroad - I’ll tell you what I’m learning - my daughter’s trip didn’t go - only 6 kids; needed ten. We found one at Case Western - elite private - also didn’t go -prof couldn’t get a Visa. These were maymesters - but I’m starting to wonder if they’re real or all flash. You only need the right study abroad though - not many.

Internships - you likely won’t intern during school and again, there’s zero benefit at UCB vs. Berkeley. It’s a globally connected world today.

I’d say this - UCB is a fine school but a large school and with large comes bureacracy.

Williams is Harvard, Stanford…at that level. Few have a chance to be with the most elite names in the country. You applied for a reason. This is your chance.

It’s isolated but schools like that will always have things going on I’m sure.

5 Likes
6

GMP here’s you into Berkeley Haas. Haas is a top business school and I’ve never heard of Williams before. And I find it strange people think Haas won’t lead to internships.

OP - please really talk to someone at GMP. It’s an elite program with <50 students in each year.

1 Like
7

Aside from the obvious differences in size, location and name recognition, two other points that I think you need to consider are what type of undergraduate education you want and how far you care to venture outside your comfort zone.

GMP is a prestigious opportunity for someone who is sure that they want to pursue a career in business – kind of an elite pre-MBA program, with an amazing network and high name recognition, worldwide.

At Williams you can double major in Economics and History and take some classes in other disciplines as well. You won’t run out of interesting classes. But even though many Williams grads attend top MBA programs and ultimately pursue business careers, both for and not for profit, Williams really doesn’t teach “business.”

Few Williams students have official internships during the school year, but they commonly secure summer internships through Williams excellent career exploration office. Grad school and career advising is very strong and the alumni/ae network extremely supportive.

Name recognition depends. All graduate and professional schools and most large employers know and respect Williams, but few average persons-on-the street (meaning your relatives and neighbors) will have ever heard of it. I went to UMich, a big state university, like Berkeley, and my son is a graduate of Williams. We are not Asian but we have lived Asia for many years. Everyone has heard of my alma mater, but Williams generally gets blank stares. You get used to it.

Berkeley and GMP seem to me to be an excellent choice well within an environment that you are familiar and comfortable with.

Williams, on the other hand, would mean a big plunge into a lot of unknown territory. I will say that Williams does an excellent job of making the transition painless and everything you’ve heard about the close relationships with professors is true and then some.The entry residential system is a big plus.

The winters are cold and snowy but the kids have fun in all seasons. Boston is about 2.5 hours by car, New York about 4, but students manage to get some city time once or twice a term. The good news is there are a ton of activities on campus not much to spend money on.

Williams has a reasonable percentage of Californians and/or Asians, though the surrounding area is not particularly diverse. ( I know what AAPI stands for but what are PWI and VSA?)

Just a word about study abroad: Colleges usually sponsor and administer their own programs (e.g., Williams @ Oxford) as well as offering an extensive list of approved programs administered by other colleges. You won’t have any problem finding a program to your liking from Williams’ list, anywhere in the world.

If you haven’t had a chance to visit Williams, I hope you can do so before making your final decision.

4 Likes
8

PWI means Predominantly White Institution, which Williams barely qualifies as (50% of undergraduates are White at Williams). It appears to be more commonly used in places where HBCUs exist, although PWI is not the exact opposite of HBCU.

VSA could mean Vietnamese Student Association.

2 Likes
9

Williams rep far exceeds Berkeley. But you cannot study business at Williams. You can do anything in business with Williams.

I think the college experience would be totally different.

I would be hard pressed to find too many that would turn down Williams. It’s yield is over 50% and these are likely kids getting into Harvard/Stanford.

UCB just isn’t at the same level - although like many publics, there are kids who go there that could get into Williams if they sought that environment, etc.

In the end, OP has to follow their heart - but it’s rare anyone gets the opportunity to attend a school like Williams. You have to want the LAC experience - but if you do, it’s the tippy top of the tippy top.

If business, were to mean, I Banking - and you adjust for school size, WIlliams is #6 and UCB is not ranked at all - although is #8 in pure population…at least on this list.

Best of luck to OP - I suppose they win either way.

But UCB is a hard admit - but a common admit. When you have 32K kids, that’s a reality. Can’t say the same for a school like Williams.

Top Feeders to Wall Street (■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■)

2 Likes
10

Williams is the #1 Liberal Arts school in the country. Anyone hiring or vetting grad school applicants will know it and its reputation.

7 Likes
11

Like I mentioned I know nothing about Williams but OP wants to settle in the Bay Area. Would Williams punch above Haas in that context? I’m not sure about that. OP has a full ride to Williams and tbh that might be a more compelling reason than the reputation of being exclusive.

1 Like
12

@ucscuuw: this is like saying you’ve never heard of Cambridge or Wharton. Williams is THAT big. To reiterate, it’s a REALLY REALLY big deal. Bigger than Haas.

To me, the biggest deal is that GMP is going to cost at least 10K more than Williams and for a low income students it’s HUGE; the mandatory Semester in London without a stipend is another huge potential problem for OP.
Why take on loans and work hours, risk being food insecure then later housing issues… when everything is covered at Williams? That safety alone is worth it when you’ve been low income and have had that hanging over your head (this in addition to Williams’ prestige, which I hope OP can recognize).
Academically there’s no wrong choice but financially one choice is very risky while the other is 100% safe.

9 Likes
13

Williams, nor Berkeley, would know no location they couldn’t get a student to. Actually that’s most any college today.

That’s not an issue - even if the student wants to go abroad.

That was also true in 1998 when I graduated from a regional grad school / kids went all over - Florida?”, TN, Texas, Bay Area, Oregon, Boston - all from Arizona.

Today the world is far more movable.

So this is of no concern. And we are talking about Williams. It has few peers…yes some but few.

1 Like
14

Like I said…

1 Like
15

(we posted about at the same time and I hadn’t seen your post when I wrote mine.)
Glad we’re in agreement :+1: - finances can’t be overlooked.

1 Like
16

Both are great, but very different. Only you can decide which one you want.

1 Like
17

It’s not the exclusivity per se. Haas GMP is certainly meets that criteria. It’s the style and focus of the educational experience.

Personally, I would have a hard time passing on Williams. It’s the Holy Grail of liberal arts education. I would choose it over any Ivy League school.

6 Likes
18

I cannot fathom being a low income student living in London without a stipend…I’m British, and have family I speak to weekly in the UK. The cost of living, of everything, is sky high even outside the city. And also rising…

GMP sounds like a wonderful program, but the financial stress of it would be my biggest concern. Does UCB really provide no support???

2 Likes
19

It’s a public school. It’s mission is to the state of California, not any other state or country. - and the Bay area is expensive on steroids.

Frankly - if you wanted to study international business, U of South Carolina is the top choice in the US.

But that’s not an option :slight_smile:

1 Like
20

the student is a CA resident I thought and therefore eligible for fin aid?? I guess the fin aid package does not fully cover the London portion, or is not adequate to cover it? Or maybe I am misunderstanding (most probably…!)

1 Like