1 in 5 parents edit their kid's college papers

Parents Forum
281

<p>Re post #267: </p>

<p>There are 2 separate lines of argument going on in this thread – one is the codependency/dysfunctional family argument (i.e., parents should eschew all involvement with their offspring’s schoolwork, just at the point where it actually becomes interesting) – and the other is the the academic dishonesty/cheating argument (i.e. kids who get help from others must be violating their college honor code, even if they are encouraged to collaborate with others and provide attribution on the work they submit). </p>

<p>Somewhere there is an “exclusivity” argument slipping in as well - I’m not sure whether it is on the codependency or honor side of the equation - but it is something along the lines of, "if college supplies service X, it is bad parenting and/or dishonesty for parents to provide similar service).</p>

<p>You seem to be responding to the “codependency” argument, with an exclusivity-based argument along the lines of: Everything that your kids need help with (moving, schlepping, finances) – is o.k. – but any sort of assistance that parents give kids that is not the same as what you do, is not o.k.</p>

<p>In any case – I would take the exclusivity argument carried to its logical extreme to be that since the college has a financial aid department, parents shouldn’t send money; since they have RA’s and others available on move-in day to help with the luggage, parents shouldn’t have a role in that; and since my d’s college offered a paid laundry service, it would have been wrong for me to offer advice if I had been asked my opinion on laundry products or procedure.</p>

282

<p>Calmom–I salute your endurance, but some people are going to keep twisting your eminently reasonable posts in order to keep their own kvetching on life support. I don’t think you can win here, though I much admire your willingness to persevere. (and by “win” I mean–succeed in demonstrating that a stance difference from that of another poster’s need not be demonized by said poster. In other words: no one has attacked anothe poster for *not *being a reader/proofer/set of eyes for their student, because that’s a choice, but some posters have a deep, abiding need to prove that a stance which *does *allow for that kind of assistance, is, in a word, evil.)</p>

<p>And you can’t argue in any meaningful way with fundamentalists.</p>

283

<p>“Our kids do send their papers to us or their siblings for proofreading and suggestions. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.”</p>

<p>Me neither. So long as you care to take the trouble to do it.</p>

<p>"In fact, as a professional, I often ask a colleague to do the same for me when I have a report to write or a paper to be submitted for publication. "</p>

<p>I’ve done that too. In fact it was expected in many work contexts.</p>

<p>“…most colleges have writing centers.”
… where student tutors are paid by the colleges to do the very same thing these parents are doing. So evidently the colleges don’t object to the notion of getting some help, in principle.</p>

<p>"Certainly, it can be a good idea to get this kind of help from colleagues, but not from one’s parents. "</p>

<p>That really depends on whether the parents are likely to give better suggestions than the colleagues. </p>

<p>If the parents are smarter/ better/ care more than the alternative “soundboards” that are available, and they care to go to the trouble to do it, they may well be the best resource for some students.</p>

284

<p>No, for some posters it’s "My child’s work is so advanced and polished (indeed, it’s akin to that of famous American writers) so that no one else (especially not a mere classmate or writing center tutor on work study) could give him/her input on the level which is required by his/her brilliance.</p>

<p>However, if the student is truly that great of a writer and that much of a perfectionist, I sincerely doubt that college standards for most classes would be so elevated as to necessitate mom or dad’s editorial assistance. Such a student would likely be the best writer in the class and any slight problem with tone or nuance would go unnoticed.</p>

<p>Let’s not beat around the bush here. For the umpteenth time–proofreading is one thing; editing is another. Editing is much grayer, and parents are more likely to cross ethical lines because of the greater vested interest they have in the child’s success. Rather than say “This is unclear,” they may cross it off and re-write. What calmom and others on here do is probably just fine. But don’t you see how outside the CC world of supersmart children, there are probably lots of parents undermining their kids’ education and their kids are being graded on work that is more mom’s than theirs? This argument is not just about whether what you all personally do is OK or not. CCer’s are an enlightened, elite group.</p>

<p>It’s like a lot of things in society. Sometimes rules must be made which are bothersome to those with integrity, but stop dishonesty in others.</p>

285

<p>You’ve made an eloquent argument for nuance, GFG. That some may have less ability to discern it than others is not something that I’d prefer to base my own decision making process on.</p>

<p>As for the argument that if the student were *that *good a writer, he/she wouldn’t need feedback because “any slight problem with tone or nuance would go unnoticed”, well, gee, that’s an interesting standard. A writer shouldn’t want to improve if his/her deficiencies might not be “noticed”? I think the best writers want to improve for their own sake, not eschew improvement ‘cause they’re gettin’ the A anyway, don’t you?</p>

286

<p>280</p>

<p>I dunno, in those days people used either freudian talk, or “im ok youre ok” when they felt the need for pysch terms. Unless they were actually psych majors, in which case they either played with mice or designed surveys to prove you were a fascist.</p>

<p>IIUC the codependency thing involves SOME inequality in status, one person being dependent, the other needing to be depended on. IIRC we are all more or less equal at school, at least as far as moving was concerned.</p>

287

<p>"You seem to be responding to the “codependency” argument, with an exclusivity-based argument along the lines of: Everything that your kids need help with (moving, schlepping, finances) – is o.k. – but any sort of assistance that parents give kids that is not the same as what you do, is not o.k.</p>

<p>In any case – I would take the exclusivity argument carried to its logical extreme to be that since the college has a financial aid department, parents shouldn’t send money; since they have RA’s and others available on move-in day to help with the luggage, parents shouldn’t have a role in that; and since my d’s college offered a paid laundry service, it would have been wrong for me to offer advice if I had been asked my opinion on laundry products or procedure. "</p>

<p>I think codependency is a real issue, and isnt absolute, for most kids. Some kids are fully independent at age 18. Some arent quite, and to make the leap need to do without even the help from parents that a friend might give. Some need LOTS AND LOTS of help in the most basic things (though presumably most of those are living at home, etc). </p>

<p>Most are in between, they still need help from their parents, they are growing in independence, and they need to keep growing. Some need a bit of a push. Some need a push to do the adult thing of asking for help from someone other than their parents. </p>

<p>Given that, I think its logical to prioritize. Some things the school has a comparative advantage at helping with, some not so much. It will vary. I am not rigid about it. I do not think however, that expecting MOST students to get their writing help from a college writing center logically implies parents not providing financial help to their kids. </p>

<p>There is something just kind of, pardon me, creepy about extensive parent involvement in the assignments of a student away at school. I am not sure I can explain it logically, its a gut thing.</p>

<p>Let me put it this way. For full time college students, their school work is their main accomplishment, the doing that is their way to become an adult. Financing themselves is very much not. Doing chores, is somewhere in between. </p>

<p>If we were talking about a youngster working full time, and taking one course as a supplement, I think it might be the reverse. For them, supporting themselves is the key to becoming an adult and writing essays is not.</p>

<p>Again, bear in mind my biases. My wife and I were very turned off at the help some parents gave their kids on projects back in grade school. To us that was an argument against that kinds of at home projects. We didnt like homework invading our family life, and we dont like the edge that gives to certain kinds of parents, and we dont think it fosters a healthy sense of independence.</p>

288

<p>"RA’s and others available on move-in day to help with the luggage, parents shouldn’t have a role in that; "</p>

<p>if they have someone who will shlep luggage up stairs, I will glady avail myself of that. If not, I will encourage DD to do most of it. </p>

<p>I doubt they have anyone willing to drive DD from DC to Troy. Even if they did we might go along for the ride anyway.</p>

289

<p>"In fact, as a professional, I often ask a colleague to do the same for me when I have a report to write or a paper to be submitted for publication. "</p>

<p>I’ve done that too. In fact it was expected in many work contexts"</p>

<p>and usually its reciprocated, eh?</p>

<p>Do folks here send their work documents to their kids to proofread?</p>

<p>If not, why not?</p>

290

<p>At #284:

But that’s probably not the “1 out of 5” that the was referred to in the title of this thread or the article that supported it-- it’s probably a relatively small percentage because, in general, the students who struggle with writing are unlikely to have capable, well educated, highly literate parents. There may be a few, particularly in the case of students with specific learning disabilities – but parents who “edit” their students work don’t start doing it in college.</p>

<p>And to me there is a very clear line as to where “editing” stops and “rewriting” begins.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>That’s where you just don’t get it. You don’t even begin to get it. </p>

<p>We don’t care about the grade when the proofreading is going on. I don’t care about the grade, my kids don’t care about the grade. </p>

<p>We care about the art.</p>

<p>Writers polish. And they agonize. And they revise and they share and they discuss their work. </p>

<p>This is what my d’s college says about writing:

</p>

<p>Both my kids chose college known for their emphasis on writing. And the <em>ethos</em> that governs in that environment is: the more feedback you get the better. </p>

<p>If a young person was studying dance or music at a conservatory or college – and that person took outside lessons on top of their school-based instruction – no one would call that “cheating”. No one would worry about whether the student’s extra lessons enabled them to get a better grade. It is simply understood that the student’s goal is to be the best that she can be, and any road to that “best” is part of the process. (And if Itzhak Perlman’s daughter got a few tips along the way from her dad… so much the better). </p>

<p>My d. worked and sweated and toiled all year long on her thesis. All the while knowing that the only person in the school who would actually read the thing was her thesis advisor, who of course had also seen all the drafts along the way. Of course the instructor would be satisfied with a less … but the instructor was beside the point.</p>

291

<p>"We don’t care about the grade when the proofreading is going on. I don’t care about the grade, my kids don’t care about the grade. </p>

<p>We care about the art."</p>

<p>anyone who cares about their writing as art, and is headed for a job in the world of policy-politics-govt etc, is in for a very, very, very unhappy time.</p>

292

<p>I am an editor by profession. There is nothing wrong with another set of eyes taking a look. However, rewriting or changing tone and voice is wrong.</p>

293

<p>OMG, when did we decide that being parents ended once a kid steps onto a college campus? Please, having someone proof read a paper and help with the editing is the responsible thing to do if you are a good writer. It doesn’t matter if it’s a parent, friend, student, etc. </p>

<p>This is not the same thing as writing a paper for them.</p>

294

<p>At #287:

Your “gut” feelings are not a standard that should guide others. Your priorities are not what guide other relationships. </p>

<p>To tell you the truth, I find the level of involvement that CC parents seem to have in logistics and housekeeping issues kind of “creepy”. When my d went off to college, I drove her to the airport and said goodbye at the security gate. I can understand parents who drive their kids to college for the first time… but I don’t really get it when parents also go to pick their kids up in the spring, and then drive them out again the following year. For that matter, I don’t understand why any kid attending a college more than 2 hours away would go home for thanksgiving, when winter break is only 3 weeks away – or why kids come home for the summer after college rather than going elsewhere for jobs and internships. </p>

<p>You say that * their school work is their main accomplishment, the doing that is their way to become an adult. Financing themselves is very much not.* I very much disagree. Yes their school work is important – but it is not the “way to become an adult” – and I see self-financing as very important. I was appalled when my son’s college suggested that parents ought to use their credit cards to establish open accounts for their kids at the campus bookstore. To me, managing their own funds, paying their own bills, and earning their own spending money is a critical part of the transition to become an adult. YES, I paid for the tuition that was owed— YES I paid for the housing – but I expected my kids to pay for everything else. The “way to become an adult” included a financial transition. </p>

<p>At the same time – I don’t condemn the many cc’ers who post about how much money they send their kids each month for fostering “codependency”. Nor does my attitude mean that I never give my kids a dime, or I wouldn’t lend or give them money in an emergency. </p>

<p>I certainly didn’t proofread all of my kids assignments, or most of them, or half of them. When I did participate, I often saw only bits and snatches of the work, and sometimes what I saw wasn’t what got turned in later on in any case. </p>

<p>But to me – school occupies the part of their life that a career will later on. I was interested in their college education the same way that I am now interested in their jobs. </p>

<p>It’s like this: my kids are now grown and they live in their own places. I live in my home, in a different city and state. But sometimes my kid ask for advice about cooking, or about a major purchase, and I give it. Sometimes I go to visit. When I am visiting, even though it is not my house, I help a little with cooking and straightening up. It’s just part of being a family.</p>

295

<p>Let me summarize this thread in a few sentences:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>“I am an amazing parent who would never stoop to editing my child’s papers. My child does beautifully without my help and all those other mediocre children should be getting lower grades like they deserve.”</p></li>
<li><p>“I am an amazing parent who edits my child’s papers because I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing so. My child does beautifully with this help and all those other children whose parents claim they don’t need any help are really not as hot as their parents claim.”</p></li>
<li><p>“My parents is the best parenting, and there is something very wrong with your parenting.”</p></li>
</ol>

<p>And now back to your regularly scheduled thread…</p>

296

<p>Post #291:

</p>

<p>Wow… you really don’t get it do you?</p>

<p>I was a lawyer – you had better believe that I cared about the “art” of my appellate briefs. I still remember the agonizing over the choice of words in some Supreme Court cert petitions filed more than 20 years ago. </p>

<p>My d. is a poli sci/IR major. Straight of college she got a dream job, one very closely aligned with international policy. To apply, she had to submit a writing sample. When she got the job, my first question to her was, “what did you submit as a writing sample?” The quality of writing is very, very, very, exceptionally, extraordinarily important. That she had a writing sample on hand that met that standard was exceptionally, extraordinarily important. As far as I can tell, NO ONE in her position – other than her – has been hired straight out of college – I know that there were 300 applicants for her position and she was one of a handful who was interviewed. I don’t doubt for a minute that the “art” in her writing was a significant part of the hiring decision. (And no, I didn’t edit the writing she submitted --she used a report she had written during a previous internship, which I have never seen)</p>

297

<p>"Your “gut” feelings are not a standard that should guide others. Your priorities are not what guide other relationships. "</p>

<p>I did not say they should guide others. I would think its clear that citing something as a gut feeling is admitting that one has not formulated a logical argument - at least not yet.</p>

<p>“To tell you the truth, I find the level of involvement that CC parents seem to have in logistics and housekeeping issues kind of “creepy”. When my d went off to college, I drove her to the airport and said goodbye at the security gate. I can understand parents who drive their kids to college for the first time… but I don’t really get it when parents also go to pick their kids up in the spring, and then drive them out again the following year.”</p>

<p>I am surprised that parents drive their kids home on short vacations. For end of year, I imagine it depends on logistics, the amount of stuff they are bringing home, if they have a vehicle, etc.</p>

<p>" For that matter, I don’t understand why any kid attending a college more than 2 hours away would go home for thanksgiving, when winter break is only 3 weeks away"</p>

<p>When I grew up Thanksgiving at home was emotionally important to me - it was also a chance to see my grandpa, who didnt usually make it to NYC during my winter break. I am not sure what my DD will do.</p>

<p>" – or why kids come home for the summer after college rather than going elsewhere for jobs and internships. "</p>

<p>I guess it would depend on what they have lined up. My DD is going to be an Archie, so if she can save rent money by getting an internship here in DC instead of in say, NYC, that will go some way toward her financial independence. When I was in college I had a junior year thing that fell through, and there was no good reason not to go home that summer.</p>

<p>“You say that their school work is their main accomplishment, the doing that is their way to become an adult. Financing themselves is very much not. I very much disagree. Yes their school work is important – but it is not the “way to become an adult” – and I see self-financing as very important.”</p>

<p>How many hours do your kids spend on academics, and how many hours on financing themselves? </p>

<p>" I was appalled when my son’s college suggested that parents ought to use their credit cards to establish open accounts for their kids at the campus bookstore. To me, managing their own funds, paying their own bills, and earning their own spending money is a critical part of the transition to become an adult. YES, I paid for the tuition that was owed— YES I paid for the housing – but I expected my kids to pay for everything else. The “way to become an adult” included a financial transition. "</p>

<p>I would say that in terms of priority for independence, managing their own bills comes first, paying for their own expenses second, and paying for tuition and room and board third, though I can accept others would prioritize differently.</p>

298

<p>“As far as I can tell, NO ONE in her position – other than her – has been hired straight out of college – I know that there were 300 applicants for her position and she was one of a handful who was interviewed. I don’t doubt for a minute that the “art” in her writing was a significant part of the hiring decision.”</p>

<p>I was not referring to hiring decisions, but to work AT the job. </p>

<p>And to the policy world, not legal briefs.</p>

<p>granted some NGOs write really pretty things. But I would say the closer you get to actually implementing something around here, the more your written products are by committee (and NOT a committee concerned with beauty, or sometimes even clarity) the more you are going to be edited by someone with a policy or bureucratic agenda, the more the wordsmithing is to make sure folks are not offended, that the thing is not aimed OVER its audience, but is not “chatty” etc, etc. </p>

<p>If you D is working at one of those NGO’s thats putting out lovely press releases, well then she may get to continue enjoying writing as an art. Lovely.</p>

299

<p>Re #297: I’m not trying to start a debate over the details – I’m trying to point out that you have a set of arbitrary self-imposed standards and others can have a different viewpoint. I’m not trying to debate the merits of coming home for Thanksgiving – I’m trying to point out that whereas you seem to think that a parent reading an assignment is intrusive or hovering… others may find the frequency of visits home or the number of parental phone calls seem strange.</p>

300

<p>calimom</p>

<p>would you edit your kids writing for their work?</p>

<p>would you ask them to proof your writing for work?</p>

<p>if not, why not?</p>