<p>"I’m not trying to start a debate over the details – I’m trying to point out that you have a set of arbitrary self-imposed standards and others can have a different viewpoint. I’m not trying to debate the merits of coming home for Thanksgiving – I’m trying to point out that whereas you seem to think that a parent reading an assignment is intrusive or hovering… others may find the frequency of visits home or the number of parental phone calls seem strange. "</p>
<p>yes, I understand that.</p>
<p>I happen to believe that there is some middle ground between A and B are equal, who is to judge, and A is clearly in one category and B is not.</p>
<p>I think in that sense there is room, in parenting, and in living, for gut feelings, for the wisdom of the culture, etc. </p>
<p>IOW I cant give you an open and shut proof of the differences, but I do not think they are entirely arbitrary. </p>
<p>To some extent I am thinking out loud, but thats never a wise thing to do in front of a lawyer;)</p>
<p>I would add, that I doubt MOST of the parents in that 1 in 5 who are editing their kids papers are insisting they finance their own expenses, or drive themselves home from college.</p>
<p>I do think you sound offbase on thanksgiving though. I dont recall anyone when I was in college who lived within 5 hours drive not going home for thanksgiving. And of course on thanksgiving it was not just 5 hours :)</p>
<p>"wordsmithing is to make sure folks are not offended, that the thing is not aimed OVER its audience, but is not “chatty” IS the ART. The ability to write well in numerous contexts, to adjust for clarity and purpose and intended audience is what the ART of writing is all about – I’m not talking about lyric poetry. I’m talking about making sure that the writing is the best that it can be to achieve its intended goal. </p>
<p>And the fact that many written products in the work world are “by committee” is one reason that college students need to get in the habit of vetting and sharing the work early on – so they know how to anticipate and incorporate criticism. And that means that the more different perspectives they get for their college writing, the better they will be prepared for that environment.</p>
<p>I edit my H’s newsletter articles for the trade publications he writes each month.</p>
<p>I have asked him to look over proposals I have written for clients to check for context and style. He has done the same. Does that make us co-dependent? I don’t think so. It does make us paranoid that we didn’t catch something or are sending the right message in our writing. Spell check doesn’t catch everything.</p>
<p>In my other job, I have a colleague go over materials all the time before printed and distributed. He asks me to do the same. He was an editor at a magazine, and has learned that an extra set of eyeballs when editing is a good thing.</p>
<p>Having written a large quantity of academic papers over the years, I have had friends and family read over a first draft many, many times. They have told me if I was on the right track, what they didn’t understand and often helped me find a completely new path for research. I haven’t always taken their advice, but was grateful for their opinions. </p>
<p>Most writers have friends read through their work before the final draft. I would be surprised if they didn’t.</p>
<p>I have looked over a handful of papers my kids have written over the years and asked me to review. I give them constructive feedback, when asked. Sometimes they just want to share them with me after they have turned them in. Either way, I am always happy to look at them.</p>
<p>Edited to add that I have had all of my kids look over my work and writings from time to time to check for clarity. The earlier they learn these skills, the better off they are. They have have to do peer edits at school all the time…</p>
<p>Unfortunately, they will not edit my CC posts. ;)</p>
<p>"so they know how to anticipate and incorporate criticism. "</p>
<p>Now you are not getting it. I am NOT talking about anticipating and incorporating criticism.</p>
<p>I am talking about negotiations. </p>
<p>wordsmithing to make something fit the audience YOU believe is the right one may be art. Compromising between the view YOUR boss holds of the intended audience, and that which HIS boss holds, etc, is NOT art. Seeing someone who knows less than you do, and cannot write as well as you, go through your work with a red pen, is not art. Rewording something clear, and truthful, into something awkward because one stakeholder within your organization has a “hot button” for a word or phrase. Well maybe that IS art, in the sense of trying to minimize the awkwardness. But in that case much that was decried here
<a href=“George Orwell - Politics and the English Language -”>George Orwell - Politics and the English Language -; is art. I would not so define it, but who in this age of perspectivism can speak for all?</p>
<p>Writing is about communication, not just the writing down and editing of words. In order to make sure I am clearly communicating my intended message, I will often show my writing to others. This has included brochures and newletters I have written professionally, as well as term papers for grad school.</p>
<p>Since I was an English major in school and currently teach reading and writing, I am the natural choice to be the “editor” for many of my family and friends. I will give as much imput as necessary to help guide them to be more clear and concise about what they are trying to communicate. It is a two way process and never just involves re-writing someone’s work. The writer has to take ownership of his/hers ideas, but may need some direction to understand how their words are interpretted or understood by others.</p>
<p>calmom, some of us don’s see a parent reading an assignment as intrusive, but may see the <em>regular</em> reading/editing of assignments intrusive. Reading the article, I got the impression that some parents were doing far more than an occasional reading or suggestion from time to time. I got the sense that some of the faculty sensed that some kids these days, with the easy communication and access are just not comfortable turning in their work until mom or dad see it, as well as wanting their involvement in other types of decision making as well. Something like a thesis, which is a huge, culminating work requiring much research and collaboration from different sources such as you are describing seems a natural for several sets of eyes, and I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a parent proofreading or offering suggestions for clarity or whatever.</p>
<p>Just as a point of interest because you mentioned musicians, I was a vocal performance major for awhile in college ( a UC), and believe it or not, going outside of the college faculty to another vocal instructor was seen as unprofessional, and while not exactly “cheating”, it had to be done in secret, if it was done at all. I was told outright that I would not be allowed to continue with the teacher who I had taken lessons from before I arrived at my new department, if I wanted to be taught by one of the faculty. If I had taken an occasional lesson from a different master teacher to polish up for a specific performance, that probably would have been ok if I had permission. But regular instruction from outside the department was a definite violation of some unwritten code of conduct while a student at the university. Afterwards in professional life, it’s all fine, however.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is criticizing your own level ( or others on this thread)of involvement with your kids, at least I’m not- but it does seem that you’re unwilling to see that there may be a real issue with some families where the parents are not helping their kids gain autonomy, and may also be in conflict with expectations in the classroom. That was the gist of the article, imo, not that it’s never appropriate to give help. It’s a matter of degree and kind. Is it out of hand? I don’t know, but that was the point of the article- to discuss that possibility.</p>
<p>To repeat an earlier suggestion by a teacher: why don’t you provide all your editing feedback AFTER the paper is graded, if it’s only about learning the fine art of expression and not about highly polishing the student’s work before the professor sees and grades it? Especially if it’s a writing class, then this way the teacher can see exactly where the student’s weaknesses lie and can provide his or her professional suggestions and insight. Isn’t that what you’re paying for when you send your son or daughter to college? If not, then create your own writing course and enroll your child.</p>
<p>Students write papers in all kinds of classes, especially during those dreaded General Ed years. My S who is an engineer would fly topics past me, especially in areas that he wasn’t in love with. Like Religious studies and philosophy classes. </p>
<p>My S can write a paper and understands the elements of writing. Most kids do, who get into college. He can put together sentences pretty nicely, actually. He usually struggled with the idea of whether or not his thesis was on-topic or expressed clearly enough. Especially when he was carrying 18 units with three lab classes and working, and not getting enough sleep! </p>
<p>With the exception of English composition classes, I never saw a Prof tell me where my writing was weak. He/she might tell me if I was addressing the thesis, but I don’t recall any prof telling me to add punctuation or anything grammar-related. It would have helped me with other classes. It was assumed that we all knew how to compose a paper.</p>
<p>I have a relative with a Ph.D who may be the worst writer in our family. One of these days, she will write a book and EVERYONE in the family will be helping her edit. She may be a genius, but looking at her academic writing, it’s hard to tell. ;)</p>
<p>These types of issues arise with other types of assignments as well, in my experience. My children had some math and science teachers in k-12 who did not teach well, along with some very confusing textbooks. In those cases, I would encourage them to learn to supplement with other texts or practice books and to study with friends. Going early to meet privately with a willing teacher does not help if the teacher does not explain things well. Other parents hired tutors, or tutored children themselves.</p>
<p>I don’t even want to get started on science fair competitions, although careful questioning of contestants (and their mentors) often reveals the extent to which they have learned the material and taken initiative. But, at least in our area, students do not get access to outside mentoring for science projects unless (most common) parents are well-connected or at least have a willingness to provide transportation.</p>
<p>This type of thing pops up at the college level, too, with some profs assigning problem sets that their teaching does not prepare most students to solve in a timely manner if they do not have far more background in the subject matter than specified in the prerequisites for the class. Perfectly capable and diligent students can spend hour after hour on assignments only to flounder on exams, for lack of access to adequate instruction. </p>
<p>Some students are given an advantage when they can access practice tests or a parent or tutor who can identify what has been lacking in instruction. With large lecture classes, the capability of an individual TA (grad student at a research university or upperclassman at a LAC) can make an enormous difference, especially if the professor seeks feed-back from the TA wrt areas that several students find confusing.</p>
<p>I think it is a good idea to ask about specifics relating to the Honor Code before deciding on a school. I would also try to find out whether students routinely attempt to sabotage each other’s work. (This is an especial concern at schools where grading is done on a steep curve in weeder courses, and where pre-meds must maintain a nearly perfect GPA to have a shot at medical school.)</p>
<p>I posted the answer to that question a long time ago. Yes, I have – mostly for my son. My son does p.r. type of work that entails drafting press releases & the like. </p>
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<p>Yes, I have in the past. My d. is listed in the acknowledgements section of my 1st book. I edited a print newsletter for a number of years and my d. helped with proofread and also was an occasional contributor. </p>
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<p>My son is dyslexic so generally not the first choice to proof for spelling errors. I might have him read over my stuff for other reasons… but spelling and punctuation is not his forte. </p>
<p>Part of the issue is simply who is available for proofreading/editing-- and who is most capable for the task. Sometimes that depends on the topic or style of writing.</p>
<p>D2 typed in a paper that I hand-wrote for me, and made a few comments in the process. But mostly the topic was too technical for her to read, other than superficially. [Frankly I’ve had the same problem in reverse, reading one of D1’s papers, I really didn’t understand the subject and couldn’t comment meaningfully on substance]. Aside from these obstacles I would gladly get feedback from D1 or D2 since both of them are very smart and are good writers. The impediment is more the technical nature of the works and their willingness and availability to help. I’ve occasionally asked my wife to look some things over, but sometimes her eyes glaze over as well. I often find another set of eyes is useful when considering written work. It is often more helpful though when that other set of eyes understands the subject and what I am actually talking about.</p>
<p>From the article, “Boyle cautions against overgeneralizations about whether this is a positive or negative trend because each student’s needs are different. While he sees a danger in mixing “helicopter parenting” with the array of electronics available today, he can also see that more contact with parents might be helpful if a student is going through a tough time.”</p>
<p>There are a lot of “overgeneralizations” going on in this thread. Every situation is different. Nowhere in the article does the author give statistics as to why parents are involved. I would venture a guess that most involve children with learning disabilities. A child with dyslexia, may have brilliant ideas but will have difficulty getting those ideas down on paper. Doesnt matter how many grammer or writing workshops etc they go through, they will always make more mistakes and have to work harder than other students. Many of these students are not officially classified as LD (it is an onerous process) either by choice or have been turned away by the system. There are very few writing labs or teachers that are equipped to give these students the kind of assistance they need. Too many times I have seen a smart LD student get labled as lazy or stupid because the same concept has to be explained repeatedly, even by teachers who should know better. It would make a lot of sense that these students feel more comfortable working with an established support system, their parents, rather than explaining their LD to another random stranger for the 100th time. </p>
<p>In the abstract, all your arguments against proofreading a childs papers sound just peachy. However, when you are talking about real live flesh and blood people you just sound petty and small. Live and let live.</p>
<p>Re post #306 – I guess as far as my analogy goes, dance is different than vocal performance. My daughter was a dance major in high school & it was considered mandatory to take outside studio classes – everyone who was serious about dance did. I don’t know about the college level, but her high school friends studying instrumental music had outside lessons on top of what they got at school. My d didn’t pursue dance at college, but her college did offer a dance major - and the class offerings available on campus for dance would have been patently inadequate for anyone seriously involved with dance, and that was at a LAC with a very strong dance dept. I mean, there simply weren’t enough class hours available and my d. complained that the studio was overcrowded for classes with the most popular instructors. That was in NY - I’m sure that dance majors would have been also taking classes at various studios around town. </p>
<p>It’s possible that things would have been different with a BFA program – such as at Julliard, Fordham or SUNY Purchase-- so it might be the college vs. conservatory environment. But it seems to me that dance culture encourages studying with different teachers and choreographers … so maybe that is very different than vocal performance and not such a great analogy.</p>
<p>My son is a musician. You don’t hire a teacher without getting the ok from your primary teacher. The prep programs for kids that I’ve seen all require the student to agree to work just with that teacher. Basically, the arrangement is quite like an apprenticeship.</p>
<p>Re #315 – the article in question provided no context whatsoever for the “1 in 5” statement – other than that the students were using the internet. So I’d assume that (a) the parental editing referred to covered a spectrum of different levels of involvement, and (b) like similar newspaper articles, the guestimate was one person’s characterization filtered through another person’s interpretation filtered through the journalist’s story-writing agenda. There is no hard stat behind it-- at least not shared in the article.</p>
<p>The most significant part to me was the total lack of detail – and the unsupported assumption that substantial parental rewriting or revision was going on-- as opposed to the type of reviewing of little bits and pieces that was my typical experience.</p>
<p>Re 315, thats my point exactly. Everyone wants to be outraged that all these kids are getting help from their parents, but you have no idea who those 1 in 5 parents are. (or even if the number is correct) The article gives no stats. You dont know who, how much or why. </p>
<p>Also, I mentioned LD much earlier in this thread and was pronounced co-dependent instantly. So I can only assume that all the outrage applies to all situations and levels of assistance.</p>