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<p>Good point, NSM.</p>
<p>trust me my mom couldn’t write a paper to save her life, and my grandma would rather be playing games 
so no worries about it.</p>
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<p>Well, consider it payback time for the negative impact of having educated parents on admissions to top colleges.</p>
<p>Besides, there are all kinds of “unfair” advantages. My kids went to a lower middle class public hs, never had tutors, test prep, special summer programs, or many of the other accouterments which seem ubiquitous among the students they went to college with. A couple comments from mom aren’t *too *much of an advantage compared to the norms they faced.</p>
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2collegewego is spot on in my mind. The student should be showing THEIR capability and be graded accordingly. The college writing center can offer help in general areas because they should know what the school is trying to teach and how far they can go without offering too much direction. There is a big difference between saying “you need to say why this…” and “say it this way”. If the teacher wanted a group writing project they would say so.</p>
<p>And there is also a difference in the working world where you ask for help from your peers and superiors. In that case you are not being graded on your work, you are being asked to provide work product for a client. I learned long ago that in the working world there is no pride of authorship. If I weren’t able to contribute to the end product I would be fired.</p>
<p>Very true. The kind of help that doesn’t cross the boundary i.e. spell check can easily be obtained elsewhere.</p>
<p>Dang - if it were a quiet evening, I really wouldn’t mind reading my daughter’s college papers before she turned them in. Honestly, after 50+ years of reading and writing, I have a better vocabulary than she does - if she would let me, I COULD suggest alternative word choices. </p>
<p>Unfortunately for (bored) me, she finishes her own writing and editing of every paper about 30 seconds before the paper is due, so I don’t get a chance… I guess I need some new evening hobbies.</p>
<p>I would never have guessed 1 in 5 parents would even be WILLING to edit papers, let alone that 1 in 5 do.</p>
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:D</p>
<p>Yes there is a mountain of difference between a parent who perhaps writes for a living and “can” edit kids papers and the same parent who actually “does” edit the papers. It’s just a classic case of not being able to let go, of not letting the kids fly on their own. It can be justified in all sorts of different ways but the bottom line doesn’t change. Parents that continue to assist their grown kids need to let go and let them sink or swim on their own. For those parents who think it’s “fine” where do you stop? Do you proofread their resumes, proofread their job application, proofread their work reports? At what point do you “stop?” I really don’t care what other parents do or what other kids do, but threads like this do make me wonder at what point those who are that day to day involved actually stop being day to day involved. If they asked me I honestly think I’d tell them to take it to the writing center or have a friend or roommate proofread.</p>
<p>Well, right now, my D is my main editor on my novel draft.</p>
<p>I guess she just can’t figure out when to let me fly on my own. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>How is this necessarily a helicoptering issue? As someone above stated, could a parent and child not enjoy discussing ideas as peers?</p>
<p>Garland and Pugmadkate, I’m with you 100%. Best posts on this thread, IMO.</p>
<p>“at what point those who are that day to day involved actually stop being day to day involved.”</p>
<p>At my parents’ death, or (God forbid) their incapacitation. I intend for us to be day-to-day involved in one another’s lives and work until then. A few weeks ago, my father asked me to visit a debtor’s business in my neighborhood and report to him the state of the operation. My mother just agreed to appear on a panel I am presenting at a conference next spring. I’m considering a new strategy for my 401(k), but I need to talk it over with Dad.</p>
<p>I make my living by critiquing and editing students’ resumes and cover letters, so I just can’t get worked up about collaboration on those. What matters is their truthfulness and effectiveness, not who wrote each word.</p>
<p>“As someone above stated, could a parent and child not enjoy discussing ideas as peers?”</p>
<p>S enjoys discussing his ideas with me after he has turned in his papers, and I’ve learned a lot through these discussions. Before finishing his work, I’ve noticed he doesn’t want to discuss his analyses with anyone. He gets a lot of pleasure out of figuring things out for himself.</p>
<p>I think there’s a big difference between a college student’s asking a parent to edit their college papers and an older adult’s asking a parent’s advice, for instance, on buying a house or other things.</p>
<p>I don’t think that it’s childish to ask parents for advice in general. I just think that one important task that colleges help students accomplish is becoming appropriately independent of parents.</p>
<p>I have had zero involvement in my son’s HS academics and I will have zero involvement in his college academics, because this is what works in our family. He went to a very challenging grade school and then to a BS that expected independence. It worked for him so it worked for us. Everyone has a different family with different needs so I assume you will find what works for you.</p>
<p>Garland, you wrote: “I don’t know anyone in the academic or professional world who would consider that cheating.” I recently had reason to check out how colleges see it. (And I agree it isn’t cheating in my line of work-- but that’s very different from a graded college paper.) What I found out was that my kids’ colleges honor codes specifically mention unauthorized assistance on any written work while friends of mine said their kids’ colleges didn’t specifically mention it. I won’t quote my kids’ schools just for privacy reasons but here are some other schools: </p>
<p>Here’s a quote from Middlebury’s Honor Code: </p>
<p>“National and Middlebury-based research and community feedback has identified a wide range of behaviors that clearly reflect academic dishonesty. These include but are not limited to… involving parents or friends inappropriately in the editing and proofreading process” </p>
<p>[Honor</a> Code Review Committee Process | Middlebury](<a href=“Dean of Students | Middlebury College”>Dean of Students | Middlebury College)</p>
<p>This is from Hamilton’s Honor Code:</p>
<p>“Academic dishonesty includes but is not limited to: Cooperative or collaborative effort in coursework without the explicit permission of the instructor. Assume collaboration and/or cooperation are not permitted unless you are expressly informed that they are”</p>
<p>[Hamilton</a> College - Student Handbook - Honor Code](<a href=“http://www.hamilton.edu/college/student_handbook/HonorCode.html]Hamilton”>Code of Student Conduct - Honor Code - Hamilton College) </p>
<p>From Oberlin:
“Ask the professor for clarification if they do not understand how the Honor Code pertains to any given assignment. In the absence of explicit instructions from the professor, students should presume that all work must be their own and that they will only utilize help and resources that are routinely offered by the college to students such as reference librarians and tutors.” </p>
<p><a href=“http://new.oberlin.edu/students/policies/11-Policies-Honor.pdf[/url]”>http://new.oberlin.edu/students/policies/11-Policies-Honor.pdf</a> (See pg 20, D3a3) </p>
<p>I realize there are some people here who might argue with these (what does “inappropriately” mean?) but I’m not really interested in arguing. I wrote my opinion and I know that my kids’ schools (their public high schools and their colleges) seem to share this position. I am sure there are schools and professors out there who do not mind and may even stress collaboartive learning (even ungraded learning)-- but unless a professor specifically said that outside help was expected, in my kids’ typical college classroom, I believe that the paper should represent the work of the person whose name is on it. If a student thinks it’s ok, certainly he can ask if the professor allows ‘a friend’ to edit the paper and find out what that professor thinks.</p>
<p>By the way, the reason I checked this out is because a friend was shocked when her son’s college professor recently accused him of cheating on his Spanish homework. It turns out my friend routinely proofs her son’s papers and, since she knows no Spanish, the boy’s Spanish-speaking girlfriend proofed his Span homework (which had to be handed in as some small part of the grade). They figured it was ok because 1- mom always proofed his work and 2- the teacher had suggested a tutor and they figured that’s what the tutor would do. Anyway, homework was perfect but kid couldn’t do the tests so the teacher accused him of cheating. She spoke to the boy and he explained what had happened and she said that because he had been homeschooled his whole life and didn’t realize this was cheating, she would let him off the hook. All homework was disqualified but mom was annoyed. (She said the boy took it in stride.) For the record, the college in question was a community college (or maybe a CSU) and it was not specifically listed in the honor code (if there even was one because she searched after I said it was in my kids’ colleges’ honor codes).</p>
<p>Another vote for the P and G camp.</p>
<p>I honed my writing skills after colleges when I started off writing copy in a newsroom and was continually and sometimes heavily edited. That was the best learning experience I could have had as every edit (95% which made sense to me) taught me something about style and sentence structure. I went on to become an editor for others which also helped me further my own writing. </p>
<p>I really wish my kids could have such training, but of course, they are going into different fields and will never have that opportunity. D1 never showed me anything last year as a freshman, (I never even saw her college essays even after the fact) and I respect her choice, but I would be happy to give her pointers and suggestions to improve style if she asked for it. I’ve edited D2 only a bit more on the few occasions in high school that she’s asked me to look over a paper but stayed away from commenting on content and argumentation as I assume she knows best on that.</p>
<p>The most important thing to me is that they develop the best writing skills they possible can and I just don’t think one can rely on a typical college education to do that unless it’s through a specific journalism/writing program. A history prof is not going to start editing a paper for style and fluency, nor should that be a major part of his grade as the content should rule. I’m sure freshman seminars and a writing center can help, but probably not at a higher level with subtle improvements and alternative wording.</p>
<p>I understand the argument that this gives some kids who have family members that can do this an unfair advantage, but we all just want our kids to come out the best they can be and so a parent with those skills should be allowed to try and transmit them to their kids just as good athlete will give his kid all the pointers they can for their sport or a bilingual parent will support his kid in learning another language.</p>
<p>2college–as I said, I don’t know anyone who would…etc. I still maintain that asking someone to proof (which, for all my discussion here, I probably did once or twice in my kids’ academic careers), is not cheating, and I still don’t know believe I know anyone who believes so (so my statement was correct to the best of my knowledge) . It *is *against the Honors Code of two of the colleges you quote (wouldn’t call proofing “collaboration” though if I attended that school, I’d check.) </p>
<p>Most honor codes I read mandate that the student’s work be his/her own. And of course, I one hundred percent agree with that.</p>
<p>What surprises me is that there are young adults who welcome their parents’ help on things like their college papers. Since elementary school, I stopped showing my parents my work. I knew that my mom could give me good feedback, but I didn’t want that feedback. I wanted what I turned in to be all mine. She actually was on the admissions committee at a college and wanted to see my college essays so as to give me feedback, but I wouldn’t show them to her.</p>
<p>Older S only showed me his college essays because I was literally standing over him making him get them in on time. After that, he stopped showing me his work – including journalism articles that he was publishing (While young, he was publishing articles in professional newspapers) until after they were published. He, too, took a lot of pride in having his work untainted by others’ help and creativity.</p>
<p>Younger S didn’t show me his college essays. To this day, I have no idea what he wrote about. When he applied for Americorps right after high school, I never saw the application. The only college paper he showed me was a 62-page one that he showed me after it was graded and handed back.</p>
<p>Although I have been an award-winning professional writer and am Ivy educated, both of my sons write better than I do. While older S was a gifted writer from preschool, younger S used to be a mediocre writer: His writing used to be wooden and lack complexity. The complex writing assignments combined with assistance from professors and the writing center that younger S got at his LAC are what turned his writing around.</p>
<p>When S talks to me about his college courses, what happens is that I learn from him. We have some enjoyable conversations, but I’m not acting as a parent trying to teach him. We have conversations like I have with interesting peers who have in depth knowledge of fields that interest me.</p>
<p>The 62-page paper that S did had some minor grammatical errors and a few typos that a copy editor could have caught. There was no indication those hurt his grade. Sure, I could have caught them if he had showed me the paper before he turned it in, but I’d rather he feel proud about producing such work without me than for him to have submitted a paper that was perfectly copy edited.</p>
<p>"I wanted what I turned in to be all mine. "</p>
<p>Well, maybe that’s where we differ. If my mom points out that an argument is vague, and I make it more clear, I still consider the paper to be all mine.</p>
<p>Particularly for my D1, I don’t have a problem. She commutes to school and doesn’t have a roommate or live-in peers. The writing center at her school is for helping non-English speakers pass the CUNY proficiency exam, and less for polishing the writing of native speakers. On the rare occasion that she says “this is important to me, would you take a look” I think it’s fine. Because if not me, then she would be at a severe disadvantage because there is no one else.</p>