<p>haha sorry daniel, my bad, I meant...I think manfredman, I might have gotten the posts mixed up</p>
<p>anyways, sorry for hijacking the thread.</p>
<p>In response to your (old, as yet unanswered) question Hopkins, I'll be going to Chicago. kk's at Northwestern. Those're the only ones I know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It should be common knowledge that Duke's yield is a bit lower because it cross-admits many students with HYPSM, whereas Columbia and Dartmouth and Brown do not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Anyone who thinks a college's yield should be deemed "common knowledge" clearly needs to get a reality check. How come so many smart posters post outlandish statements like this?</p>
<p>confused students - I worded that real bad</p>
<p>What i meant is that, when talking about Duke's yield, it is low because it loses applicants to HYPSM, not to Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, and Penn</p>
<p>so, corrected statement:</p>
<p>It should be common knowledge that Dukes yield is lower because it cross-admits students with many HYPSM, whereas Columbia, Dartmouth, and Brown do not take away the majority of cross-admitted students (but about half)</p>
<p>
[quote]
whereas Columbia, Dartmouth, and Brown do not take away the majority of cross-admitted students (but about half)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>thoughtprocess, is there data to back this up?</p>
<p>How can BC rank 19th? USC (Trojan) should be better... If replacing BC with USC, then I agree with your ranking..</p>
<p>"I mean are you going to struggle in making money or marrying someone or living comfortably because you graduated from Duke or Northwestern, not Brown, Columbia, or Cornell? Not likely."</p>
<p>Actually Duke and Northwestern are both ranked above brown, and up until this year, both were ranked above cornell as well.</p>
<p>TP,
I question the integrity of the "Duke" article you cite. Remember, it is a marketing or public relations piece, put out by DUKE UNIVERSITY. Since Duke is a relatively young university compared to most of the ivy (I think Cornell is the youngest), over the last 20-30 years it has attempted to improve its stature by chasing the oldest and most prominent ivies, HYP. Of course it would be natural for Duke to attempt to compare itself then with the other ivies by "crashing the party". I don't put much stock in the article.<br>
As for your nonsensical statement about Duke having more cross admits with HYPMS?? That must be questioned critically. Please support this statement since you purport yourself to be the "Facts Guru." When I am talking about stature, I am talking about perceptions, not which school's average SAT score is highest. I don't think the average American says, gee, "Princeton's average SAT is higher than Harvard's, therefore Princeton is a better school." That would be totally ridiculous. </p>
<p>Hopkins, I don't know anyone in his/her right mind who would choose Hopkins over Columbia, Cornell or Brown if prestige is important. You indicated that it was because of the SAIS program. While that might be true, what happens if you discover that you don't like that area of study or move outside the DC beltway?? C'mon...Outside of its medical school, who really goes there if they got into an ivy?</p>
<p>Porsche, I cannot agree with you. The Ivies are all awesome universities to be sure, but they are merely 8 of the top 20+ colleges and universities in the US. Other amazing universites include Amherst, Cal, Caltech, Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Michigan, Northwestern, Stanford, Swarthmore and Williams. </p>
<p>I personally picked the University of Michigan over 4 Ivies (Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Penn). My mother, who is herself a Columbia alum, actually encouraged my decision. </p>
<p>As for Johns Hopkins is one of the elite universities in the US/World. It is on par with the likes of Cornell and Penn. It cannot be compared to Brown and Dartmouth because it is completely different, not because it isn't as good. And for somebody pursuing a future in Diplomacy, SAIS has only one or two peers, like Georgetown's SFS and Princeton's SFS.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Columbia, Dartmouth, and Brown do not take away the majority of cross-admitted students (but about half)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In the Revealed Preferences study the ranks were</p>
<p>Columbia 8
Dartmouth 10
Brown 7</p>
<p>Duke 19</p>
<p>Alexandre,
I don't see where we disagree. Where have I ever said that there are only x number of academically prestigious schools??? This list of course is not exclusively ivies. Please reread my posts. </p>
<p>The fact that you picked UMich over those ivies is your decision. I am sure at Mich you found people who got into Harvard but decided to be in Ann Arbor. For some people, the amount of prestige afforded to a school is not of paramount importance. There are people who, despite having the financial means, choose to drive a Ford Mustang over driving around in a Porsche. To each his/her own but I'll have my 911.</p>
<p>Afan, he's talking about cross-admits to Duke and the other schools, not rankings on that bs RP ranking. If you want to refute him, find data that contradict him.</p>
<p>Porsche, "don't know anyone in his/her right mind who would choose Hopkins over Columbia, Cornell or Brown if prestige is important." Hopkins has more prestige outside of its own region, while Cornell and Brown have less. Brown in particular is best known as the place Lisa Simpson dreamed she'd have to go in a nightmare.</p>
<p>No one cares what the average American thinks. Notre Dame is better than Princeton from that perspective. Duke also has much more stature to the average American than any of the non HYP ivies.</p>
<p>Porsche, the magazine is actually critical of Dukes inability to get applicants from HYPSM - schools that Duke actually ranks behind in almost every important undergrad category (aside from basketball)...you have the worst arguments by denying the sources validity. A magazine wouldn't lie about statistics. IT SAYS about HALF. Afan, your RP doesn't contradict that, do you even understand what its about? I mean, I don't really understand what its about...I just know that Duke gets half the applicants with Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, and Penn. So that study is like, weird and doesn't provide actual data relevant to the argument.</p>
<p>Porsche, I love how you think a Duke alumni magazine wants to LIE about data to crash the exclusive party with Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, and Penn - OH WAIT, Duke has slighlty HIGHER SATs, better professional placement for elite Northeastern grad schools, more national merit scholars, IS ACTUALLY RANKED HIGHER on a few big rankings. </p>
<p>BTW Porsche, you said "Just look at Duke's Peer Assesment Scores!" without actually looking yourself - only to find that Duke's PA score is HIGHER than Brown, Dartmouth, and tied with Penn. Go ahead and acknowledge you didn't know what you were talking about. I mean, I think PA is a BS indicator anyways, but since you didn't and cited it, just man up and plead ignorance.</p>
<p>I already told you that I worded that incorrectly - what I was saying was "It should be common knowledge that Duke's yield is low because HYPSM take away its students." Not because of Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn and Brown. See, that makes more sense now. </p>
<p>So Porsche, what have we learned today? I'm going to ask you some things, since you love avoiding addressing facts but instead challenge available data - four question quiz, with a bonus thats probably impossible to get:
- Go to collegeboard.com, or US News, go to average SAT scores, and tell me, in terms of scores, which school is strongest - Duke, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, or Penn. Even if you go "OMG SATS DONT MATTER" just tell me.
- Go to the Wall Street Journal Feeder Ranking. Please tell me what school, out of Duke, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, and Penn does best in placing its undergrads into elite Northeast professional schools. Go ahead. Do that.
- Go to this site : <a href="http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf</a>
Go to page 26. See what school, out of Dartmouth, Penn, Duke, Columbia, and Brown has the most National Merit scholars.
- Go to the US News ranking, and THES, or even Newsweek Global U Ranking, any ranking that isn't based on graduate science contributions. Please tell me Duke's rank in comparison with Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Penn. (Hint: Duke is usually in the middle of things). </p>
<p>Extras
-Try and find some data that actually says Columbia, Dartmouth, Penn, and Brown get more than half the applicants from Duke. Seriously. I found a source, but you said "ITS PROBABLY LYING" - even though I doubt there is lying in a nationally published alumni magazine. And it makes sense, just by looking through CC and decisions made by college kids that Duke is as popular a choice as the rest.</p>
<p>Also, just admit you don't bother to try and learn anything about a school instead of pathetically defending your views - after all, you called my claim that Duke was AS GOOD AS Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, and Penn "Irresponsible." Have you looked up a single actual fact about the undergrad student bodies at these schools? And I really thought you said you were considering Duke for grad school...</p>
<p>BTW, don't start saying Duke is Southern and racist, which is a natural extension of your lack of knowledge. For example, Duke is usually rated as one of the top 4-5 private Universities for black students, usually competing with Harvard, Stanford, Penn, and Columbia for the title. Preemptive strike if you will.</p>
<p>This is ridiculous. Duke ABSOLUTLEY is at the same level as Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, and Penn and its higher than Cornell and Northwestern. Thoughtprocess is totally on target.</p>
<p>Some academic facts
Duke-48 National Academy Members, 32 major faculty awards-2004
Penn-85 NAS members, 31 faculty awards
Cornell-64 NAS, 36 faculty awards
Northwestern, 38 NAS, 37 faculty awards
Columbia-91 NAS, 32 faculty awards</p>
<p>Duke is in the mix but not clearly better than any of them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hopkins has more prestige outside of its own region, while Cornell and Brown have less
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I really doubt that Hopkins is as well-known as Cornell internationally.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No one cares what the average American thinks. Notre Dame is better than Princeton from that perspective.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What perspective??</p>
<p>
[quote]
Duke also has much more stature to the average American than any of the non HYP ivies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry, I disagree with this. It's really hard to believe that Duke has better stature than Columbia and Penn for example, whose great network in Wall Street.</p>
<p>The average American doesn't work on Wall Street. Duke's basketball program gives it a boost in terms of recognition by the average Joe, which is what I think daniel was getting at. Not that such recognition really matters, of course, especially since Duke's basketball program in particular draws more than its fair share of haters in addition to admirers. :p</p>
<p>
[quote]
Duke's basketball program gives it a boost in terms of recognition by the average Joe, which is what I think daniel was getting at.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Then possibly USC has the same stature as Cal??? I believe here we are talking about the stature in academics, and for that matter I would guess that Ivy status+Wall Street connection play a significant role in establishing their stature in academics.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Duke also has much more stature to the average American than any of the non HYP ivies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps when it comes to an informal polling of barflys at your local sport bar, but in settings that actually have substance such as Wall St. (as rtkysg pointed out), Duke doesn't have a better rep than Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth or Brown (or even Cornell for that matter).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Duke ABSOLUTLEY is at the same level as Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, and Penn and its higher than Cornell and Northwestern.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I express no opinion on this. I was pointing out that I doubt the claim of 50/50 split in cross-admits.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Afan, he's talking about cross-admits to Duke and the other schools, not rankings on that bs RP ranking. If you want to refute him, find data that contradict him.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you read the RP study, you find that you can calculate this from the data they present. See page 25, and Table 3 in the 12/05 version of the paper. If you don't understand this, how did you conclude the paper is "badly scholared"?</p>
<p>Table 3 would predict at least a 70% win on cross admits for Dartmouth, Brown, and Columbia.</p>