2nd/3rd tier Engineering schools (generous merit) vs Top Tier Engineering schools (no merit)

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

I am losing sleep at night looking at all angles. I am a parent. I have dissected my S’s top choice schools even to the point of reading bios of professors and other news articles concerning their work (among other things). S has some of the top five engineering schools in his list along with 2nd and 3rd tier engineering schools that have offered full or near full rides. Still waiting on a few RDs. I was hoping to seek out parents or students where the choice was a top tier school with no aid and also those who chose a 2nd or 3rd tier school where their costs were minimal. I’d love to hear the thought process in how you chose one over the other (whichever that was) and how you feel about it after your child started school:-) How is your student doing in school and are they still happy there or have they transferred?

Of course, in the end, we have told our son to make an informed decision whatever that is. He doesn’t realize yet that we probably won’t qualify for FINAID, and I guess I am holding off on telling him til we actually get the financial aid packages from the colleges. I always told him to spread all offers out on the table and compare and contrast everything you’ve learned thru your interaction with the school, visiting and things you’ve read and to listen to your heart/gut or at least not ignore it.

Any insights anyone willing to share or discuss on this subject? All opinions welcome.

2

My son was a gifted student in high school and had some choices. His field made the ultimate choice…There are some fields where quite frankly, a second or third tier school isn’t that large of a disadvantage. His field of Computer Science is one of those where he looked at it and decided against a pretty powerful school and chose a very much 3rd tier school because he will graduate with zero debt and still has many opportunities for internships. He kind of leans towards wanting to go to grad school and will likely go to a slightly more elite one. He is also a kid who likes being ‘at the top of the class’ and he probably would not be at many of the ‘elite’ schools where he would fall more in the middle.

That said, there are some fields where the school has a big impact (Harvard for Business anyone?). I would tell you that in Engineering there are a small number of schools where the difference matters, but for the most part, Engineering is a field that is fairly school blind. As long as the school is somewhat reputable, then he will be fine…

Personally, I’m also a bit biased against going into a lot of debt for school, even for higher paying fields, partially because so many kids who say they are going to be an ‘Engineering’ student have never actually had a real Engineering class nor do they understand the field all that well and it leads to quite a few major changes after years 1 and 2.

3

That’s what I’m struggling with! We got to be in our financial situation not because of high powered jobs but living very frugally and regardless what the EFCs say, those are still high price tags for top tier. I’ve heard some of the things from other frugal friends on 2nd and 3rd tier schools but none of our friends are in that situation yet. We are the oldest, ie with the first of our children going off to college. We also have a huge aversion to debt and just in general don’t buy luxury items. An almost $400k undergraduate degree in my book equals luxury. Sigh. Thanks for your insight!

4

I don’t know that this helps, but I am a senior going into engineering (aerospace, to be exact) and I’m planning to go to a 2nd tier college with a good scholarship.

5

DS is a senior and so far UA has the best financial aid package for him, along with the college experience. He only applied to colleges that could provide at least full tuition. I was not interested in the selective schools with the full need.

Full ride or near full ride would have been great, perhaps you could give some examples of them? Because I couldn’t find any schools where that was even a possibility.

I am thrilled he was able to find an affordable school, and he is also happy with it.

6

If you knew you would not qualify for financial aid, what did you tell him you would pay? I hope this discussion took place before he got his hopes up on being able to go wherever he was accepted . I’m a little unclear from your post about what you are willing to pay. My kids went to our state schools for engineering. The older one did consider top privates as he was a top student. We advised him of what we could pay , as the only private schools he had interest in either had no merit ( an Ivy) or very little merit ( a top 10 private). He opted to go to his state school , rather than take out more loans for a private or have to pursue merit at schools that gave it but he was not interested in. Once you pursue merit aid, I am guessing it is hard to turn that down if it does materialize. Look at the career services stuff, recruiting info for the schools you are considering. For engineering, as long as a program is ABET accredited, there should be good opportunities for a student that does well in school , has an internship or some work experience, works well with other people, etc. Good luck.

7

Where do you see a $400K undergrad degree? Even the highest priced schools are topping out around $250K for 4 years (not small change, but not $400K). And engineering students often get summer internships that pay pretty well, especially after sophomore and junior years, which helps. Also, while you may be averse to debt, an engineer can pretty easily cover the amount of federal loans that are available (currently $28K total for undergrad).

It is important to be attentive to this and make a rational decision, but this strikes me as a somewhat panicked post.

Did he apply to schools where he might get some merit aid, but not a full ride or near full ride? Say Case Western, for example, where he might get a decent amount of merit, but not likely a full ride. Knocking even 1/3 off the price, plus knowing he will have some decent summer earnings, and allowing him to take federal loans makes it more palatable.

I also think it is a mistake to NOT put it on the line with your kid before they apply what your financial constraints are, and work with your kid to look at NPC results and the likelihood of merit aid at their various choices. It isn’t very fair to keep them in the dark, then tell them you can’t (or won’t) pay once the offers come in. You are where you are… but it would be understandable if your kid is not happy with you and has some trouble accepting this.

8

I’m curious as to what you think are first, second and third tier schools. Lots of people probably consider public flagships to be second tier, but they have among the best engineering schools.

I agree that for engineering where you go to school doesn’t matter as much as for other degrees.

9

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I’m curious as to what you think are first, second and third tier schools. Lots of people probably consider public flagships to be second tier, but they have among the best engineering schools.


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What is the top tier school?

Yes, many publics have the best engineering schools because their states have a vested interest in producing engineering for their states.


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I agree that for engineering where you go to school doesn't matter as much as for other degrees.

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Exactly. It’s not as if a company is going to pay an engineer more for going to a pricey private. The company won’t do that.

10

I agree with previous posters. If you haven’t told your son how much you’re willing to pay for college, the time to do it is before the acceptances and financial aid packages come in. The sooner you do it, the better.

11

Have you told him anything about your cost constraints?

It would have been best to tell him what your cost constraints were (and run net price calculators on college web sites) months ago, before he made his application list.

12

I am not financially savvy. Husband is mostly deployed and doesn’t have time for input…it’s been me and my S on this journey. I guess we thought we’d get some financial aid as all the school EFC calculator for top schools were in the $30k range…that to me, even though we are frugal is not bad really…so I’m nott sure what happened when I filled out the FAFSA as our EFC was skyhigh. Somee schools we are looking at have $67k/year tuition…not sure where I got $400k…emotional and not thinking straight I guess…we did talk money. My son is even more frugal than we are. Honestly this is our first rodeo and been stumbling along the way really. Top tier engineering some on our list include Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc…that’s what I mean by top tier. I’d better end here. Feeling defensive…I’ll figure it out. Thanks for all the insight.

13

Well, I do hope you check back here.

I think that the decision should be at least partially emotional. You can consider, you are buying a commodity- an engineering degree. What is that worth? He will actually be fine probably anywhere to get that basic education. Then ask, what are the intangibles that are draws for him? Access to Silicon Valley Start-ups for internships? Hearing amazing speakers? Taking specific kinds of hands-on classes? Being able to be part of a co-op? Give each a weight, or more importantly a price tag.

I am in the camp that inspiration and imagination go a long way, and it is worth it to get that spark. It’s kind of like the MasterCard commercials (or is it Visa?). Some things are just priceless!

I personally would value a top tier school (and all that goes with it in terms of intensity of experience and overall inspiration value) at somewhere around 2 years starting salary premium over a “commodity” school. Others would value it at 0-1 year premium.

So, when you have figured out your personal value system, you are ready to rank schools in terms of “premium.”

Then, you are ready to find the money. Once you have dialed in your values, you can run NPCs, and determine what brand of “Champagne” you are likely going to be able to afford (or maybe you will find that you are on a Beer budget).

Your son will then have a fairly good idea of where he is likely to end up, and he can wait for the offers to arrive. More importantly, he will know why he chose the school he chose.

I hope this was helpful, because I do realize that I just described pretty much everything from his full-ride offer to about $30K/year, net. The point is, there are two reasons to go to school- one is for the commodity trade skill set; the other is for the experience and inspiration (how you will be in the world and how you will use the tools). I would pay a premium to amplify the learning in the latter area- the challenge is to quantify the premium you are willing to pay and to quantify the value the school is likely to deliver. For some, they either don’t value the latter aspect (they may believe it is intrinsic to the person and the school adds little), or feel it is worth a different premium. This is where you and your son can have the fruitful growth discussions- trying to grapple with this question.

This value system is so different for each family that it is worth having the explicit discussion (and difficult for good advice to come from a discussion board).

I do value undergraduate education, because I believe that is the (emotionally) formative time. Graduate school is professionally formative, but is really a relationship mostly within your lab, or maybe your department; but does not have as much of that broad explore-the-world feeling where one is seeking out inspiration.

By the way, congratulations on your son’s full ride and near-full-ride acceptances!

The best way not to go crazy over something is to assert some (feeling of) control and order over it. Use the time you are waiting for acceptances to help your son get to know himself and his value system better. It is easy to minimize cost. It is easy to de-value emotional experience. Help him to not do this, but rather to find a way to quantify intangibles and come up with a “best value” metric that embraces and does not run away from his personal, honest, values. :slight_smile:

14

D is in the engineering program at one of the lesser known technical universities. She was a top student in high school, with great grades and test scores. She has a large merit scholarship and that’s keeping our costs low. She loves it so far and we are impressed with what we’ve observed from the school. No regrets yet. There’s a great education to be had and many fantastic opportunities at many schools that don’t necessarily get a lot of mention on CC. Nothing wrong with choosing the merit aid route, if that’s what works best for your son and your family finances.

15

Very helpful @itsjustschool. There I go getting emotional again:-) I guess I did not go about my research the most prudent way. You know how I started my research? Asking those of the same rank as my husband for their advice. Every single one I spoke to talked about $30k EFCs and to expect that. I actually had that in my mind not even understanding how assets come into play and everything else. And when NFCs also spit out around that, I thought ok, we can do that no problem. A very kind CC member sent me a FAFSA spreadsheet that calculates EFC as you put in data. Once I started playing with the numbers I finally understood how they all relate to one another and finally understood why our EFC was so high (I had already filled out the FAFSA and was a little shocked). I still don’t completely understand my husbands GI Bill he transferred to our boys and how that comes into play. From the little I’ve read it looks like it can cover up to the instate portion of the chosen college. I’ll worry about that later.

I guess I need to step back. S is enjoying visiting the last college on his list. I did insist he visit every one:-) going to focus on the next hurdle NMF and getting our taxes done…baby steps.

I’m on here pretty much every day…have learned so much…think it really would be difficult to stay away! I really do appreciate all comments…even the ones that sting a little.

16

Thank you for the kind words, ma’am! I would be curious to see that spreadsheet. My DD is a Junior (one year behind your son) and I sometimes obsess on the websites, too.

In quantifying the value the school offers, I would look at things like international speakers (cultural) as well as more education oriented. For example, at MIT or Stanford, I am interested in how you can go through with small class size. At MIT, there is an office of experiental education that describes some of the alternative freshman tracks, etc. It is those sorts of value add-ons that I like to ferret out to try to determine how special the experience will be. Honors colleges have lots of perqs that are hard to find, like later access to the library, or on-campus lockers and special halls in the dorms, or invitations to colloqia and research-project matching.

I am frustrated at how hard these are to ferret out, and I do not see them here at CC. So that is how I would use my sleepless nights if I were you: finding discriminants to boost the value of the full-ride offers, or finding support to validate the value of full-pay options and putting them into a spreadsheet to weight with your son and husband.

If you have that spreadsheet, I would love a copy! I do not know how Financial Aid works, really at all.

17

Yes exactly! I didn’t even know what an “honors college” was until the accepted schools said he was automatically accepted or encouraged him to apply. Again second and third tier but you know what? That is a huge draw I think! I read all I could on these programs, particularly GT and UA.

If you send me a message and give me your email there, I’ll email you the form. I am sure the cc member would not mind me sharing. He does a new one every year, and it’s like a lightbulb going off.

Good for you getting serious senior year. We visited the first few colleges over Spring Break junior year. My husband and I went to two totally different universities so visiting more traditional schools was refreshing.

18

Need to chime in here and say that I’m with @Itsjustschool. The last paragraph sums it up. We have a sophomore engineering major and she landed at the best school for her. She has thrived and doesn’t look back. Her choice was a top tier school that had exactly what she wanted academically and a full slate of extracurriculars. She ultimately chose it herself. We also gave her a “formula” which involved putting her own skin in the game (she is responsible for paying a portion of the cost). Best wishes for you and your son.

19

When you start getting the various aid offers, run them through this calculator: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/awardletteradvanced.phtml It will help you sort things out.

Here is a link to the pdf of the FAFSA formula. It isn’t hard to work through on paper: http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/090214EFCFormulaGuide1516.pdf

Lastly, not about an engineer, but possibly worth reading: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-at-a-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later-p1.html

20

Sorry… I think this is ridiculous criteria for an engineering education… I just have to say it. The OP does not need MORE off the wall things to spin her head, she needs a solid list of top considerations. This is not one of them… These things are hard to ferret out because they are nits in the process of selecting school. It is easy to get lost in digging deeper and deeper in the minutia in an effort to gain some control over the process. But it is an illusion. Control is:

  • Having a solid list of schools where the academics match what your kid wants, the atmosphere appeals to them, and it meets your budget.
  • Having some safety/match/reach schools on the list.
  • Going back to accepted student visits at the top few choices once the acceptances & FA packages are in.

Also, understand that FAFSA EFC isn’t what a college will actually ask you to pay. If you are genuinely confused about what the cost might be for some colleges that show a much lower NPC (understandable confusion), you can call those college financial aid offices. A lot of them are very helpful and might help you understand what kind of cost you might really expect, and whether the NPC is going to be accurate for you or not.