I have a daughter who is a freshman at some lower tier school (have no idea how you are rating them other than to agree the MIT and Cal Tech are much harder to get into than the school she goes to). She was a solid student in high school, but not a superstar. She didn’t even consider the big engineering schools because 1) we didn’t have the money and 2) she would have been intimidated by the other students. She did consider the military academies but in the end decided against them. When she started school last August, she was petrified. She’s very young (was only 17) and she just didn’t know what to expect. She’d taken AP chemistry, but that was the only STEM AP she had. She’d only taken pre-calc. After a few weeks (especially after the first exam) she realized she was holding her own. She worked really hard and did very well. It really is the right school for her.
My nephew is also a freshman engineering student. He attends a big public school that I would consider Tier 1 (I went there, so it must be the best, right?). He seems overwhelmed. Chem was fine, but the math was hard. My sister will tell you that the math at his school is MUCH harder than at my daughter’s (my sister thinks her son walks on water), but I think they used the same book and took, basically, the same quizzes and exams.
Of the two schools which would I have liked better? Well his of course! I did go there. It was the whole package - D1 sports, Greek life, that college town feel, great outdoor life. His is a university of 20,000+ students and hers is 3500 nerds and geeks, D2 sports, very little to do in a sleepy little town. Both will probably graduate with no debt. His school is one of the more expensive publics but he has some good opportunities to work (he’s a referee and makes good money just working one or two Saturdays a month) and she has enough scholarships to make it work for me.
I do think you should look into the Yellow Ribbon schools more. My daughter’s is one, and if I understood what they were saying at orientation (we’re not military so honestly I was interested but not paying close attention to the details) I believe that her school would accept your GI benefits as the rest of tuition after the merit award (which is about 1/2 tuition for most high stat students). The GI benefits also have room and board benefits and I think they also take those as full payment for those (and at her school the R&B costs are ridiculously high, over $13,500/yr). You could pay nothing at a Yellow Ribbon school.
@intparent, I have heard people be inspired by Elon Musk, Dean Kamen, Tim Berners-Lee, and other notables that may (or may not) speak at, say, Ball State in Muncie or other great schools. I have also seen people here on CC post that their child rates a “pretty campus” very high on the list.
Education is not just degree-directed for everyone. I stand by my value of having an education rated based on having creative and inspirational input, including, and especially one in a creative field such as engineering. If you feel that my values are ridiculous, that is your prerogative; not an especially kind way of rebuking me, but that too is your prerogative. It seems you judge me harshly.
YMMV. That is why it is hard to ask for advice- everyone has different value judgments.
Note that OP’s son already has full-ride acceptances to schools that have solid academics in the field her son wants to study, according to the original post. She is wanting a method to sort among chosen options.
Great advice two! I love that there is a Yellow Ribbon School Program and also Obamas bill he signed into law last Fall making public institutions that accept GI Bill monies instate for all military and veterans and dependents (up to three years after getting out). It takes effect Fall 2015. Unfortunately it doesn’t help with a few of the privates on my DS’s list! They don’t accept GI Bill money and certain colleges within one university does do Yellow Ribbon but not Engineering unfortunately.
If there are mil folks out there your local Education Center on your post can help you sort it out.
Yes… but it is what your KID is most interested in. It happens all the time out here that parents are trying to parse the info down to the tiniest detail that MIGHT be “the thing” that distinguishes a school. What you want is for your kid to have a reasonable list of schools (not one dream school), put together their best application for that list, then narrow it down once they are accepted. I am all in favor of visiting before applying so YOUR KID can tour, go to a class, eat in the cafeteria, look at the posters for stuff going on around campus, read the student newspaper, etc. Then go back to top choices in the spring for a final decision. But parents get so wrapped around the axel in little details. Plus… if Elon Musk came one year, he probably isn’t coming back soon… And in the end, if the parent picks the school and what is going on there isn’t what the student cares the most about, odds are that it may not work out so well. Parents certainly have a role to them in setting boundaries on the finances and try to keep them from making big mistakes (commuter schools, schools with poor graduation rates, schools in high crime areas, etc.), and in suggesting possible schools for kids to consider. But “over researching” on stuff like speakers is just a road to crazy in the college search world.
@intparent, I am afraid you totally misunderstood what I was saying. I simply was suggesting that it may be a value for a student that a school has a speaker series. Or not. It was AN EXAMPLE.
She is not suggesting (I don’t think) researching the particular fraternities and the bios of the undergraduate officers, and the specific themes and schedules of parties planned for this year. Shall we rebuke her that if John Smith is president of that fraternity this year, he likely won’t be next year? Or would that, perhaps, be condescending? Maybe try to make her look a bit of an idiot?
I am only trying to say that looking back on the final decisions both my kids made about their schools, their intuition about what was the right fit for them was much better than all the research about minor stuff that I did. The OP doesn’t need more detailed items to research. This is one of the worst times in the college search process, when applications are in, but all schools have not yet responded, and FA packages are not clear yet as well. Parent have a tendency to dig in with research of every little thing that might distinguish a school. Notice that I say “parents” do this. Students are also stressed waiting for responses from the colleges, but they tend to be a little more zen about whether they need to find out just. one. more. thing. Accepted students visits with 24 hours on campus are very revealing. If the student liked the school well enough to apply to start with, just let it rest for a while now. I sort of laugh now at the “one. more. thing.” items I spent time on for both of my kids. In the end, those aren’t the decision factors, nor should they be.
@intparent I hate to admit that is exactly what I’m doing! I still remembered when my S made the list. Setting up visits to the schools was easy. When they came to town just show up and take notes. Easy. A few rolling and EA apps, yes that was hugely stressful for S at exam time before Christmas and then a few more RD over the break. Accepted to all so far and kid is feeling good. His only stress is schoolwork. Me, yep I’m digging and looking for that one more thing. I throw little nuggets out here and there. My S tells me to stop it. For a parent this waiting for the financial aid packages and hopefully a few more merit offers is even more stressful! My S doesn’t act like the waiting bothers him. I fear it’ll be right up to the final hour…so many good schools really.
I keep reading here that many kids just know. Typically from a visit. I hope he clues me in to that and then I guess have talk #2 about finances. I think I’d love to hear him think out loud through it…what he thinks is reasonable and affordable and see if it jives somewhat. I tend to be more generous than DH so hopefully that won’t be an issue.
@itsjustschool I do understand the point you were making.
Well… my kids didn’t “know” the minute they stepped on campus for their schools. D1 liked hers pretty well, but D2 was wiped out from an academic camp for 3 weeks before and was a bit of a zombie on her tour. D1 got in EA to her school with merit aid, and decided in the end that she liked it just as well as a few higher ranked (and more expensive) choices she had. She loved it, graduated Phi Beta Kappa, and has a great job in the city she wanted to work in. I cut a deal with D2 that she would still apply to the “zombie walk” school and go to accepted student days if she got in. But in her mind it was a distant 3rd place… until she went to all 3 of her top schools. The other 2 did not really shine for various reasons during the longer/overnight visit for accepted students, and the “zombie school” really did. She is a happy sophomore there now. At this point, you need to decide what you actually can afford to contribute (sounds like some negotiation with your H might be needed…), communicate that to your S, and then let him decide among the choices on the table within those parameters once he hears back from all schools. I do recommend accepted student visits to the top choices before making a final decision, though.
Very few students qualify for huge merit scholarships. Don’t feel bad if your family opts to take advantage of that good fortune. A diligent engineering student will have good opportunities from almost any school.
Per FA formulas, savings is a factor. But income is a much bigger factor. Others reading this thread should not be scared off from any college until running NPC. Things do vary a lot by college and family circumstances.
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Asking those of the same rank as my husband for their advice. Every single one I spoke to talked about $30k EFCs and to expect that.
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Likely all of those peers weren’t as frugal as you’ve been. They likely don’t have $600k in non-retirement savings plus two rental properties that are also bringing in income. All of those things are going to change a $30k EFC into a mega EFC.
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I've heard some of the things from other frugal friends on 2nd and 3rd tier schools but none of our friends are in that situation yet. We are the oldest, ie with the first of our children going off to college.
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Your friends haven’t gone thru this yet. Who knows whether those colleagues really know what they paid at various schools. And they may have had more than one child in college or they weren’t great savers.
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I guess we thought we'd get some financial aid as all the school EFC calculator for top schools were in the $30k range..
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Something doesn’t sound right. If you did put in a $120k AGI and $700k in non-retirement assets, it just doesn’t make sense that you were getting results back in the $20k to 30k range. I think you indicated that schools like S were giving EFCs is the $20k range.
Did that $120k AGI include the housing allowance?
But even if you were getting those NPC results back, once the schools looked at your tax returns, etc, they likely would have “added back in” some of your deductions.
I know this is frustrating, but do have a convo with your son about the max you’ll pay each year. If you feel that $30k per year is your max, then say so now. I think you have another child to put thru college, is that correct?
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Again second and third tier but you know what?
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The ranking system has changed a lot recently. What are you calling 2nd and 3rd tier ? There was a time when the top 50 were first tier, and the 51- 120 were second tier…and so forth. But, about 5 years ago, rankings have gotten a little crazy and now the top 150 or so are top tier. I don’t know if that’s because the education output isn’t different enough anymore or what. As for US News, only about 40% of the ranking was based on what was going on in the classroom, so maybe that’s why?
Rdtsmith, you are not alone. We are in the same boat with our S, and have many of the same questions. He will major in ME and has a full tuition plus $2500/year offer already from U Alabama (D is a sophomore there and loves it). Bama’s new facilities for STEM are beautiful. But many in our educationally snobbish area of Northern VA consider Bama a 3rd tier (we know better with D being there already, although we still get “the look” from acquaintances). S has several EA schools pending notification any day now (UVA - instate, and UT Austin, which he is excited about), as well as several RD schools with notifications in March and April (Vandy, RHIT, Rice, Va Tech). Out of all of them, U Alabama is probably the lowest rated if you want to believe all of the engineering reviews and ratings. But who knows how much that will really matter in the end when he hits the job market in 2019? Is a nearly free education from one school as good as one requiring debt for attending a “higher ranking” school? For us, is Va Tech really that much better for engineering than Bama? Va Tech will will be cheaper than Rice or Vandy or RHIT for us by far, but Va Tech may cost a bit more per year than Bama. Is the extra $$ for a Rice or Vandy or RHIT worth it? How do you decide? Also, UVA is certainly viewed by many as more prestigious that Va Tech, but it is probably a slight notch below it when it comes to engineering. Does that extra “prestige” matter? In short, come April 1, we plan on sitting him down with everything we know and helping him come to the best decision for him, with the knowledge that he has a finite pot of $$ from us to get his degree. Good luck to you!
OMG drw, I could’ve written that you’re right! S got some of the same offers your S got and looking at some of the same schools. Top tier I’m only counting the top5 to 10 engineering schools. In fact that’s how S first started his list. I’m sure UA and others have great engineering programs but I’m sorry can’t compare to stanford, caltech, mit and GT. We even looked at Berkeley and a few others. We really do have to decide what’s more important in the end. I know quite a few mit graduates and mit teaches their kids to problem solve under immense pressure. I don’t even think Stanford is at that level. Is that what is most important? Or will a good engineering program do? He may have more options to do different and exciting things at second and third tier, just not the with the top people in engineering today. I would think I also have to talk to my S what his goals are. A solid job? Research and having a part in breaking technology or what exactly?
Yes military we don’t count onpost housing nor tax free pay in a combat zone as income. I swear most of the NPCs I did at the colleges websites JUST asked income questions. I think only stanford and perhaps mit asked more in depth questions and back then I was guessing on amounts but I do remember using the same income amounts as I did on FAFSA within a few thousand dollars anyway.
Yes mom2collegekids I could swear GT’s hoc calculation was between $20-30k. This was back in October when I ran those but gee either I made huge mistakes or I don’t know what!
Yeah US News rankings I don’t put much faith in. I think we just glanced at those! We read some recent articles in engineering journals and mostly found online rankings from different sources. Cu Boulder and CO School of Mines were also top tier.
So… you need to see where he gets in before you worry too much, right? Is he in yet at Stanford, Caltech, or MIT? I don’t see his stats posted anyplace (although assume he is NMSF given your UA posts). But that is no guarantee of admissions to any of those schools. I know a couple of parents who spent a lot of time agonizing ahead of time over the differences between MIT & Caltech, and kids were not admitted to either. Just saying that (again) you could be stressing over a decision that he won’t even get to make.
It looks like you will have a lot of great options. It is wise of you to try to map out and attach a limit value with your son and husband on what each opportunity will be worth to your family, knowing that each opportunity will have a different value to your collective goals. Having those discussions and building that decision matrix before all of the offers are in, but with a limited universe of only the schools to which he applied, will help you to be clear-eyed in your decision-making come decision time. I think you are on the right track. This strategy is interesting to watch as you go down the path!
I imagine things will shift in the meantime, and the final visits will be key, but you will all be very clear on your individual and collective values.
Yes still waiting on two top tiers. He just got into GT and all the others he applied to. I stopped posting where all he was accepted…but here I am laying open our finances to strangers! But seriously, I’ve gained some valuable info and insight here. I’ve learned so much here.
And I told him today to concentrate on his private scholarship apps now. He’s picked about 12 out so far, I told him he needs to show his dad too how committed he really is by doing things beyond filling out admission applications.
@Rdtsmith, it can be agonizing trying to figure this out. What I learned when I was in your shoes was that the ranking systems don’t rank what most people think they do ESPECIALLY in engineering. The U.S. News engineering ranking is based 100% on institutional reputation. They just ask university presidents to name who they think is good and they tally it up. That’s it. Now, it’s a matter of understanding how institutional reputations are made. That is from their PhD programs and not based in any way on their undergraduate programs. So, some of the big names actually don’t have great reputations for UG teaching. Some are grinds. Some so much so that they are almost as well known for their suicide rates. So, my advice to you, don’t sweat it. Narrow down the lists to ones that meet your budget. Then research which ones are better known for undergraduate teaching. Visit if you can and pick the best fit.
For what it’s worth, my son, who had very high stats, chose, of his own volition, not to apply to either of the bigs, Cal Tech and MIT. He’d been warned off by family friends that either taught or attended them. He chose instead to focus on schools with great reputations for undergraduate teaching that started the engineering sequence freshman or at the latest, sophomore year. He applied, was accepted to and got good money from RPI, WPI, Utah, Colorado State, Case Western, and Cal Poly.